How big is all this 'utilities' equipment?

[puntloos]

How much space am I going to need just for "heating, cooling, water" equipment? I tried to find a few representative pictures on these devices..
 

1. MVHR
2. Forced Air System which includes the airconditioner condenser coil I think
3. ASHP, ASHP Buffer Tank & Hot Water Storage (or can one cilinder handle all?)
4. Gas-based boiler (backup for deeply cold days)
5. Rainwater storage?
6. Photovolt convertor and electricity Storage?

 

Is the above anywhere near fair, and if so, am I correct you need a pretty sizeable 'plant room'? Feels like a 3x3 space is the absolute minimum if leaving out rainwater storage

Edited February 24, 2020 by puntloos

[Ferdinand]

Try searching the forum for Plant Rooms.

 

eg

 

[Ferdinand]

And

https://www.google.com/search?q=buildhub+plant+room+site:forum.buildhub.org.uk&safe=off&sxsrf=ALeKk00AU00Y4K3Oo9E9DgXE3L4PqeZsrw:1582518559136&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi398SErennAhWVgVwKHRHHCtYQrQIoBDAAegQIBRAP&biw=785&bih=390

 

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Ferdinand

[PeterW]

4 hours ago, puntloos said:

How much space am I going to need just for "heating, cooling, water" equipment? I tried to find a few representative pictures on these devices..
 

1. MVHR
2. Forced Air System which includes the airconditioner condenser coil I think
3. ASHP, ASHP Buffer Tank & Hot Water Storage (or can one cilinder handle all?)
4. Gas-based boiler (backup for deeply cold days)
5. Rainwater storage?
6. Photovolt convertor and electricity Storage?

 

Is the above anywhere near fair, and if so, am I correct you need a pretty sizeable 'plant room'? Feels like a 3x3 space is the absolute minimum if leaving out rainwater storage

how long is a piece of string ..??

 

Water cylinder can be anywhere from 550x1300 to 700x1800 depending on size. Will also need an expansion vessel of 10%. 
 

Buffer could be anything from 500x500 upwards but can be wall mounted (and go above the DHW cylinder with careful planning.)

 

Rainwater you never store in a warm space - either outside, underground or in a cold attic. 
 

MVHR goes from 600x600x300 wall mounted up to a semi commercial unit taking up 1200x 1000x400 

 

Not sure what you mean by forced air as that would be air conditioning and they are best mounted in ceiling voids if it’s a ducted unit. 
 

Boiler is pointless - even at -10c an ASHP keeps going, you just run it for longer. 
 

I’ve got a 300 litre cylinder, 65 litre buffer, all expansion vessels and all controls and UFH and DHW manifolds in a space 800x1700.... and you can still walk into it ..! It is about planning. 

[ProDave]

I provisioned for a "plant room"  That was almost a waste of time,

 

The only thing in the "plant room" is the MVHR unit (which is quite a large one) and some of the heating controls and an expansion vessel for the heating.  The hot water tank ended up going in an airing cupboard just like a "normal" house to get it closer to the main points of use. And of course a monoblock ASHP lives outside.

[puntloos]

4 hours ago, PeterW said:

how long is a piece of string ..??

17.

No wait

18!

 

Do I win?

 

4 hours ago, PeterW said:

Water cylinder can be anywhere from 550x1300 to 700x1800 depending on size. Will also need an expansion vessel of 10%. 
 

Fair, although the idea of putting it close to the bathrooms does appeal to me. I'm not quite sure yet what a 'hot return' is that supposedly fixes the cold pipes. Will research a little later.

4 hours ago, PeterW said:

 

Buffer could be anything from 500x500 upwards but can be wall mounted (and go above the DHW cylinder with careful planning.)

 

Rainwater you never store in a warm space - either outside, underground or in a cold attic. 
 

MVHR goes from 600x600x300 wall mounted up to a semi commercial unit taking up 1200x 1000x400 

OK but indeed def not a negligible box. And I think there's also a ton of manifolds that might sprout up above it?

 

4 hours ago, PeterW said:

 

Not sure what you mean by forced air as that would be air conditioning and they are best mounted in ceiling voids if it’s a ducted unit. 
 

Yes I did mean AC. My current plan is to "hope" (with science!) that ASHP/MVHR/Insulation will work well, but to have a backup plan, e.g. maybe not yet purchase an actual AC unit, but at least be ready with ducting and indeed a spot on its wall. Ceiling void, why is that the best spot? Are you suggesting to e.g. have both the internal and external unit inside+outside the loft will be optimal somehow? (presumably on the shady side.)

4 hours ago, PeterW said:

Boiler is pointless - even at -10c an ASHP keeps going, you just run it for longer. 

As you noticed I'm a bit hesitant to accept ASHP to work in 100% of situation this house will encounter in the coming 40 years, so while I might not actually buy a boiler during build, I figure making it easy to add one as a backup (so allocating space and maybe some plumbing) seems sensible?

 

4 hours ago, PeterW said:

I’ve got a 300 litre cylinder, 65 litre buffer, all expansion vessels and all controls and UFH and DHW manifolds in a space 800x1700.... and you can still walk into it ..! It is about planning. 

 

I've looked around but can't find pictures of yours.. care to share?

 

4 hours ago, ProDave said:

I provisioned for a "plant room"  That was almost a waste of time,

 

The only thing in the "plant room" is the MVHR unit (which is quite a large one) and some of the heating controls and an expansion vessel for the heating.  The hot water tank ended up going in an airing cupboard just like a "normal" house to get it closer to the main points of use. And of course a monoblock ASHP lives outside.

 

Fair enough.. I guess I am a bit more 'pre-planning' for things like a boiler and an AC that might never materialise.

[puntloos]

One additional question though: How much noise does a plant room make? 

[Bitpipe]

7 minutes ago, puntloos said:

One additional question though: How much noise does a plant room make? 

 

Depends who you've locked in it and if you used the ball gag or not.

 

 

[Bitpipe]

8 minutes ago, puntloos said:

One additional question though: How much noise does a plant room make? 

 

Mine has a humm from the MVHR and usual boiler noises. Occasional gurgle from the condensate pump (as it's in basement needs pumped up to ground floor).

[Bitpipe]

19 minutes ago, puntloos said:

Fair, although the idea of putting it close to the bathrooms does appeal to me. I'm not quite sure yet what a 'hot return' is that supposedly fixes the cold pipes.

 

Either have a ASHP or a gas boiler but not both.

 

For a rarely used gas boiler, you'll need a heating design that will work with both and enable a means of cutting over, have to pay cost of boiler, install (more complex due to a dual system), commissioning, standing daily charge for gas, annual service etc. 

 

Hot return is simply running a wider bore (22mm) hot feed in a circuit around the house with individual feeds teeing off as required in either 22mm (shower, bath) or 15mm (sinks). At the end of the run, there is a 15mm return back to the UVC with a pump and either a timer / pipe-stat or in our case connections from PIRs or light switches in each bathroom (also triggers MVHR boost). 

 

All hot pipes need to be well insulated and there is a small heat loss of circulating hot water in a loop, but it's likely minimal in practice.

 

When the pump is running (timer / pipe stat or someone has walked into the bathroom) the hot water is close to the tap and does not require a long flow to pull off the cold 'dead leg'. 

 

The end user experience is near instant hot water to any tap - most useful for hand washing, showers and baths less so as you're more tolerant to the 'heating up' delay.

 

There are other ways to achieve similar experience - @Jeremy Harris has impulse heaters near each hot tap or you could use a lower bore run from the hot manifold to the tap (smaller volume of water to 'dead leg'.

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Bitpipe

[Bitpipe]

Rainwater is usually stored in a custom underground tank (3000-4000l) or if you have a suitable space you can DIY one using IBCs. Needs to be dark and cold or you get algae growth and risk of legionnaires. Also needs to run off to soak-away when full and needs to filter out leaves and other junk from the supply - which must be from roofs and not ground acos to avoid contamination. It will have dilute bird crap in it though so think if you want that flushing your loos.

 

If you're using it to flush toilets (again, not as simple as it sounds, needs separate plumbing run) then you need a separate gravity fed header tank (usually in loft) that is pumped from the main source and has a mains feed incase the main tank runs dry.

 

Adds up to quite a bit tbh and only gets you a few brownie points on the water usage calculator. Best to get a nice efficient dual flush system for your toilets.

 

Grey water harvesting is even more complicated and needs loads of space.

 

[puntloos]

53 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

 

Depends who you've locked in it and if you used the ball gag or not.

 

 

No duct-taping the gimp, then?

 

52 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

 

Mine has a humm from the MVHR and usual boiler noises. Occasional gurgle from the condensate pump (as it's in basement needs pumped up to ground floor).

 

I guess I'd love a dB reading but it doesn't sound too terrible to have this e.g. right next to the kitchen? Or would it be a bit of an annoyance?

 

42 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

 

Either have a ASHP or a gas boiler but not both.

 

For a rarely used gas boiler, you'll need a heating design that will work with both and enable a means of cutting over, have to pay cost of boiler, install (more complex due to a dual system), commissioning, standing daily charge for gas, annual service etc. 

 

Fair point, I have not 100% decided if I want a gas line or not. I've always assumed so but I suppose we could do away with one..

Perhaps we can forego it..hmm but but but my ornamental gas fireplace... (which has to somehow work with the well-insulated house, I know..)

 

Quote

 

Hot return is simply running a wider bore (22mm) hot feed in a circuit around the house with individual feeds teeing off as required in either 22mm (shower, bath) or 15mm (sinks). At the end of the run, there is a 15mm return back to the UVC with a pump and either a timer / pipe-stat or in our case connections from PIRs or light switches in each bathroom (also triggers MVHR boost). 

 

All hot pipes need to be well insulated and there is a small heat loss of circulating hot water in a loop, but it's likely minimal in practice.

Plus perhaps compensated by not wasting so much cold water? Makes sense

 

Quote

When the pump is running (timer / pipe stat or someone has walked into the bathroom) the hot water is close to the tap and does not require a long flow to pull off the cold 'dead leg'. 

 

The end user experience is near instant hot water to any tap - most useful for hand washing, showers and baths less so as you're more tolerant to the 'heating up' delay.

 

There are other ways to achieve similar experience - @Jeremy Harris has impulse heaters near each hot tap or you could use a lower bore run from the hot manifold to the tap (smaller volume of water to 'dead leg'.

 

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

Rainwater is usually stored in a custom underground tank (3000-4000l) or if you have a suitable space you can DIY one using IBCs. Needs to be dark and cold or you get algae growth and risk of legionnaires. Also needs to run off to soak-away when full and needs to filter out leaves and other junk from the supply - which must be from roofs and not ground acos to avoid contamination. It will have dilute bird crap in it though so think if you want that flushing your loos.

 

Bah a little aerosolized bird crap never killed anyone.. right? 

 

Quote

If you're using it to flush toilets (again, not as simple as it sounds, needs separate plumbing run) then you need a separate gravity fed header tank (usually in loft) that is pumped from the main source and has a mains feed incase the main tank runs dry.

Yep, I'm aware. Not trivial.

 

Quote

Adds up to quite a bit tbh and only gets you a few brownie points on the water usage calculator. Best to get a nice efficient dual flush system for your toilets.

 

Grey water harvesting is even more complicated and needs loads of space.

 

 

Thanks a ton mr @Bitpipe, you certainly know your piping.. super helpful. Lots to think about. I suppose I am partial towards having a "eco friendly" solution rather than necessarily 'most cost efficient' (and while I appreciate e.g. a dual boiler system will be more complicated, the added price will be in the low thousands I imagine, not break the bank necessarily) however clearly at some point you have to say nevermindnevermind.

 

Perhaps a powerful electric heating element (6kW?) can be fitted into the water storage for "OMG the entire family has to shower in 15 minutes!@£" emergencies and that'll do away with the need for a boiler, even in the -10 winters that will surely come after global climate change..

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by puntloos

[ragg987]

43 minutes ago, puntloos said:

I guess I'd love a dB reading but it doesn't sound too terrible to have this e.g. right next to the kitchen? Or would it be a bit of an annoyance?

Direct appliance noise is not the problem if you have a separate plant room. Wall mounted MVHR and circulation pumps will transmit the noise to adjacent rooms, so need care when mounting. E.g. heavy boards plus vibration mountings.

Edited February 24, 2020 by ragg987

[ragg987]

47 minutes ago, puntloos said:

ornamental gas fireplace

LPG cylinder outside would be fine and if used occasionally should last a long time. But airtight house and real fire seem contradictory?

 

Also see no point of Ashp and boiler. Stop sitting on the fence, once the build starts you will need to get your decisions sorted so may as well start early ?

[Bitpipe]

Duct tape looses adhesion over time. Airtightness tape would last longer but is quite expensive. But I digress...

 

I have quite a large MVHR (result of building a large house) Sentinel Kinetic Plus and it has a noise rating of 39dB @ 3m. 

 

The plant room is isolated from the neighbouring room by a standard stud wall insulated with rock-wool and a FD30 door and you can only hear it when you open the door. It is mounted on a concrete wall though so there is no vibration transference.

 

Every UVC will have one or two immersion elements (mid and near top of tank) to provide top up heating via electric - ours are wired to a PV diverter which detects exported electricity and uses it to get the tank back up to temp - on cold but bright days we have noticeably more DHW.

 

If you're getting decent levels of insulation and airtightness, then you may find an internal heat source like an ornamental gas fire chucks out an uncomfortable amount of heat. Our previous new build (2001) was just built to regs and running the gas fire there made it too warm very quickly. In our current passive standard house it would drive us outside in minutes. We made provision for a 'fake fireplace' ethanol burner and even the smallest generated too much heat. So now it has cut logs and twinkly fairy lights instead

 

It's good to be green but be wary of those innovations that cost a lot of money both upfront and as a knock on to your build and then have a very long payback time and questionable environmental impact.

 

In my view, always best to design & build an efficient house that has a fundamentally low energy requirement for space heating and has an efficient DHW,  lighting etc approach.

[puntloos]

2 hours ago, ragg987 said:

LPG cylinder outside would be fine and if used occasionally should last a long time. But airtight house and real fire seem contradictory?

 

Yep, I was wondering about if it is doable to have the 'feeling' of a fire (which is something I like, childhood yadayada) but indeed having an airtight house. Obviously trying to create as little heat as possible, and to compensate one could open a window while gas-firing..

 

2 hours ago, ragg987 said:

Also see no point of Ashp and boiler. Stop sitting on the fence, once the build starts you will need to get your decisions sorted so may as well start early ?

 

Yes, only-ASHP seems to be the direction I'm going. 

[Ferdinand]

These days, electric ones do a good imitation.

 

Or there are those things that hang on the wall.

[Bitpipe]

I have a fire app on my Amazon fire stick (appropriately enough) for the big TV - is actually quite calming, even crackles.

 

In an airtight house, opening one window never works, you need two to create a cross draught.

[Jeremy Harris]

10 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

I have a fire app on my Amazon fire stick (appropriately enough) for the big TV - is actually quite calming, even crackles.

 

In an airtight house, opening one window never works, you need two to create a cross draught.

 

 

I've got a fireplace app in the car.  Can only use it when parked, but it displays a fire on the big screen and turns the heating on, to make things feel cosy.

[Bitpipe]

2 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said:

 

 

I've got a fireplace app in the car.  Can only use it when parked, but it displays a fire on the big screen and turns the heating on, to make things feel cosy.

 

Must get one of those. Lighting a proper fire used to play havoc in the old car.

[puntloos]

Hm. I must say the dimplex Opti-V doesn't seem terrible. I think it's logs made out of, or covered with red leds, with an 'LCD screen' sheet in halfway, and well a speaker for the crackle. 

 

It's... not very authentic, or warming.

 

But pretty convincing?

 

Plus what about the angry neighbours complaining about the thick smoke.

 

So conflict much weird. 

[Bitpipe]

One thing I've noticed living in our well insulated airtight house for over 3 years now is you don't need an obvious 'source of warmth' to feel warm.

 

The house is at a comfortable 22^o year round and there are never any draughts (even when a single door or window is open) so you never feel cold.

 

I do love an open fire and used and abused the one that was in the cold, draughty old house that we demolished to make way for this one but really don't miss it.

[puntloos]

Frankly I think one of the things is how we humans 'remember things'. My parents' house never was deeply cold as far as I remember, but we made a bit of an 'event' of our open fire sessions, where just for fun we just said 'oh okay, lets fire up the hearth' and we would rearrange the chairs around it and I had wood-loading duties and we would make some drink etc etc.. 

 

I don't think my fond memory has anything to do with the temperature, but this entire ritual would just feel... silly... to do around an electric fake fire ?

 

But then again.. it wouldn't really be based on any of the other factors either.

[Cpd]

My house is deeply cold and my kids are aged 3 and 4 and both of them have known for a very long time how to make a fire in the wood stove,  no novelty about it just another job that needs doing daily in winter. As a side note I have NEVER had a fire guard and neither of the kids have  ever burnt themselves. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Cpd
Wrong quote.....

[Bitpipe]

4 hours ago, puntloos said:

Frankly I think one of the things is how we humans 'remember things'. My parents' house never was deeply cold as far as I remember, but we made a bit of an 'event' of our open fire sessions, where just for fun we just said 'oh okay, lets fire up the hearth' and we would rearrange the chairs around it and I had wood-loading duties and we would make some drink etc etc.. 

 

I don't think my fond memory has anything to do with the temperature, but this entire ritual would just feel... silly... to do around an electric fake fire ?

 

But then again.. it wouldn't really be based on any of the other factors either.

 

Our Derry 1970's council house WAS deeply cold - was supposed to be gas heated but they did not have sufficient pressure to get the town gas up the hill so we had no central heating until the mid 80's when they retrofitted anthracite boilers. Ice on the inside of the window etc.

 

However being Derry in the 1970s, there was always something on fire in the neighbourhood