Mitsubishi 8.5kw ecodan

[Taff]

Anyone had experience with this type of pump, is it up to providing all the HW/UFH FOR A 180 sq meter house?

[ProDave]

Yes, providing the house is reasonably well insulated and not too draughty.

 

I am heating a house just under 150 square metres with a 5Kw ASHP

[Taff]

It’s a sips build so fingers crossed not to draughty 

[Taff]

On 23/02/2020 at 20:19, ProDave said:

Yes, providing the house is reasonably well insulated and not too draughty.

 

I am heating a house just under 150 square metres with a 5Kw ASHP

Is your water above 45 degrees 

[ProDave]

10 minutes ago, Taff said:

Is your water above 45 degrees 

DHW is heated to 48 degrees by the heat pump. That was found by experiment the hottest I could hold my hands in for washing up. I see no point having DHW that is too hot to touch.

 

UFH runs a lot lower than that.

[Taff]

Ouch! We’ve been told that it will run at 45, wasn’t sure if we could alter it if required 

[ProDave]

There should be an adjustment to set heating water temperature and DHW temperature separately.

[Jeremy Harris]

There is.  It has a heating mode and a hot water mode, both of which can be independently set.  Like all heat pumps like this it can either operate in hot water mode or heating mode, not both at the same time. 

[Stones]

@Taff   We have that very model.  Some info from my blog about its performance:

 

 

 

[Taff]

20 minutes ago, Stones said:

@Taff   We have that very model.  Some info from my blog about its performance:

 

 

 

Nice one looks like I’ve made a good decision, we’ve opted for the 300 tank as well. One question you mention you can cool with the ashp! I wasn’t aware of that. How cool can you set it too?

[Stones]

I'd have to look on the controller / manual to tell you the lowest flow temp, but as I've just sat down with a cuppa it'll have to wait. From memory around 12C flow temp. Run through your UFH it would have the effect of pulling heat out of the slab which should in turn cool the house. We haven't really used ours for cooling. @jack and @Jeremy Harris have used the function very successfully in their houses.

[Jeremy Harris]

I run our floor cooling from our ASHP with a flow temperature of 12 deg C.  Works extremely well, better than I'd have thought, TBH.

[JamesP]

• We have the following in our new self build. MITSUBISHI ECODAN PUHZ-W85VAA with a 300 Litres PRE PLUMBED EHPT30X  cylinder.
• 285sqm well insulated with MVHR.
• Exceeds my expectations.

•  

[joth]

On 23/02/2020 at 13:16, Taff said:

It’s a sips build so fingers crossed not to draughty 

 

Not sure how much this was said in jest, but just FWIW achieving a good level of airtightness requires much more effort than choosing a build method and the crossing of the fingers. 

[jack]

3 hours ago, Stones said:

I'd have to look on the controller / manual to tell you the lowest flow temp, but as I've just sat down with a cuppa it'll have to wait. From memory around 12C flow temp. Run through your UFH it would have the effect of pulling heat out of the slab which should in turn cool the house. We haven't really used ours for cooling. @jack and @Jeremy Harris have used the function very successfully in their houses.

 

I think I have ours set to cool with 16 deg C flow temperature. Works astoundingly well downstairs. We have concrete floors and it's like walking into a cool stone church on a hot summer's day. 

[joth]

On 26/02/2020 at 21:36, JamesP said:

• We have the following in our new self build. MITSUBISHI ECODAN PUHZ-W85VAA with a 300 Litres PRE PLUMBED EHPT30X  cylinder.
• 285sqm well insulated with MVHR.
• Exceeds my expectations.

•  

 

Hi @JamesP - as a strong enthusiast of this model, can I check do you have the Wifi module and MELCloud online service for it, and would you strongly recommend it?

I'm pretty (OK very) reluctant to my heating system control have have a hard dependency on a cloud service that could be blocked/shutdown at any time, but it's been included in the quote I've got and doesn't seem to cost too much, and if it's handy for the short term (initial setup monitoring) etc then maybe I leave it in anyway even if I plan to replace it longer term.

 

But question then is how one can integrate the Econdan / FTC5 into a local (not cloud) home management/automation system. Presumably having a very simple "call for heat" dry contact is achievable, but would loose most the benefits of having the complex FTC5 controller.  Deeper integration (e.g. to relay each room/zone temperatures etc into it) seems very hard (undocumented) with the ecodan products, unlike the German ones that tend to have a range of modbus/KNX/TCP interfaces available.

 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by joth

[joth]

On 23/02/2020 at 20:19, ProDave said:

Yes, providing the house is reasonably well insulated and not too draughty.

 

Just to confirm, this was "yes it will meet the needs" not "yes I have one of these ASHPs". ?

 

(After this thread, I've made it a minor  goal not to ever have whatever the ASHP was that you had ?)

[ProDave]

25 minutes ago, joth said:

Just to confirm, this was "yes it will meet the needs" not "yes I have one of these ASHPs". ?

 

(After this thread, I've made it a minor  goal not to ever have whatever the ASHP was that you had ?)

To clarify, I have an LG heat pump and it works well (with the occasional niggle)  I don't have an Ecodan but I am familliar with them and have heard nothing but good things about them.

[JamesP]

54 minutes ago, joth said:

 

Hi @JamesP - as a strong enthusiast of this model, can I check do you have the Wifi module and MELCloud online service for it, and would you strongly recommend it?

I'm pretty (OK very) reluctant to my heating system control have have a hard dependency on a cloud service that could be blocked/shutdown at any time, but it's been included in the quote I've got and doesn't seem to cost too much, and if it's handy for the short term (initial setup monitoring) etc then maybe I leave it in anyway even if I plan to replace it longer term.

 

But question then is how one can integrate the Econdan / FTC5 into a local (not cloud) home management/automation system. Presumably having a very simple "call for heat" dry contact is achievable, but would loose most the benefits of having the complex FTC5 controller.  Deeper integration (e.g. to relay each room/zone temperatures etc into it) seems very hard (undocumented) with the ecodan products, unlike the German ones that tend to have a range of modbus/KNX/TCP interfaces available.

 

 

 

Hi Joth, I must be clear we have only been in since Feb 2020 so our experience is limited, @Stones has far more knowledge than I do as do others here.

No Wifi module or online cloud service here. Its just personal choice so much so that I want the option to be able to live off grid here or another build in the future.

Sorry I cannot be more helpful.

 

[joth]

16 hours ago, JamesP said:

Sorry I cannot be more helpful.

 

Not at all, you've actually been very helpful   

The fact you have good experience of "bedding it in" without the wifi module  tells me I don't need it, despite my natural inclination to go for All The Gadgets. (My hunch is others on here will concur with your choice too, but any counter opinion of it being very useful would be welcome)

 

Cheers

 

 

Edited June 11, 2020 by joth

[Stones]

18 hours ago, joth said:

 

Hi @JamesP - as a strong enthusiast of this model, can I check do you have the Wifi module and MELCloud online service for it, and would you strongly recommend it?

I'm pretty (OK very) reluctant to my heating system control have have a hard dependency on a cloud service that could be blocked/shutdown at any time, but it's been included in the quote I've got and doesn't seem to cost too much, and if it's handy for the short term (initial setup monitoring) etc then maybe I leave it in anyway even if I plan to replace it longer term.

 

But question then is how one can integrate the Econdan / FTC5 into a local (not cloud) home management/automation system. Presumably having a very simple "call for heat" dry contact is achievable, but would loose most the benefits of having the complex FTC5 controller.  Deeper integration (e.g. to relay each room/zone temperatures etc into it) seems very hard (undocumented) with the ecodan products, unlike the German ones that tend to have a range of modbus/KNX/TCP interfaces available.

 

 

 

 

We don't have the WiFi module or use the MELCloud service, and to be honest can't see a reason why you would ever want or need to.  The system works perfectly without it, or indeed without integration into a home management / automation system.  We run our house as a single zone, and it maintains the set indoor temperature without any issue.  We have room thermostats in the bedrooms controlling actuators on the UFH manifold so we can turn off the heating in the bedrooms, but other than that, it just ticks along in the background.  I use the Auto function which works on a weather compensation basis, only heating to the lowest flow temp required to maintain the set temperature (in our case it's very rare for flow temp to exceed 30C).  No complicated setting up in terms of setting heating curves (although you can control by this option if you wish).  Controller also allows you to programme on/off times to match cheap electricity rates etc. Master controller records details of energy use and production.  I wouldn't waste any money trying to integrate with other control systems or cloud functionality as they simply are not needed.

[joth]

Thanks @Stones this is also super useful assurance.

 

32 minutes ago, Stones said:

Master controller records details of energy use and production

 

Sounds good. I think like solar PV inverter and redirect, the real/only interest for me in cloud services is passing interest in the monitoring and performance reporting it might provide. It'd be nice to log this data by time of day, but really not crucial .

 

32 minutes ago, Stones said:

We have room thermostats in the bedrooms controlling actuators on the UFH manifold so we can turn off the heating in the bedrooms, but other than that, it just ticks along in the background.  [..].  I wouldn't waste any money trying to integrate with other control systems or cloud functionality as they simply are not needed.

 

This is very interesting. The thing that led me to investigation home-autoation integration was another installer was pushing to integrate with Heatmiser controls with zone and thermostat per room. I pushed back saying I'm doing Loxone system with its own thermostat per room, so really no point having the cost of doubling that up, and besides I only wanted one heating zone anyway. They replied that the domestic heating compliance guide requires that separate rooms should have their own temperature control (page 55 of http://www.ukwta.org/pdfs/DomHeatingComplGuide.pdf)

I don't think that applies to us anyway, as we're a renovation not a new build, but if it did it never occurred to me that if we did need to comply I could very easily have Loxone control zone actuators at the manifold, completely independent of the whole-house thermostat controlling ASHP on/off.  I like it.

 

One other thing I might want to do is give the ASHP a 'boost' signal when we're at high PV generation. The simplest way like you say is to statically programme this into it  as "energy is cheap around midday (except in winter)", but I think I saw a simple dry-contact on FTC-5 I can use to enable a boost mode, which is about all the integration I really want anyway.

 

Thanks again!

 

[joth]

20 minutes ago, joth said:

I think I saw a simple dry-contact on FTC-5 I can use to enable a boost mode, which is about all the integration I really want anyway.

Yes this was it

 

FTC5 Section 4.9 Smart grid ready

Quote

 

In DHW or heating operation, the commands in the table below can be used

IN11 IN12 Meaning

OFF (open) OFF (open) Normal operation

ON (short) OFF (open) Switch-on recommendation*1

OFF (open) ON (short) Switch-off command

ON (short) ON (short) Switch-on command*2

 

 

This is perfect - with a pair of digital inputs I can force it on, force off, or "recommend" on. I don't feel like I need more that that. 

Edited June 11, 2020 by joth

[LA3222]

On 10/06/2020 at 19:24, ProDave said:

To clarify, I have an LG heat pump and it works well (with the occasional niggle)  I don't have an Ecodan but I am familliar with them and have heard nothing but good things about them.

Having just browsed through that thread it seems a bit disingenuous to suggest that the LG heat pump only has "occasional niggles". Seems to have been a right PITA and required your professional knowledge to resolve, a skill set not available to all self builders. Like @joth suggests, that thread is a good warning to give the system you used a wide berth.

[ProDave]

12 minutes ago, LA3222 said:

Having just browsed through that thread it seems a bit disingenuous to suggest that the LG heat pump only has "occasional niggles". Seems to have been a right PITA and required your professional knowledge to resolve, a skill set not available to all self builders. Like @joth suggests, that thread is a good warning to give the system you used a wide berth.

Yes, I post facts only in that thread, but I could not honestly recommend that model to someone.

 

You have to understand I got mine through a very round about route at a very low price, so I don't have much come back and accept the "issues" because I got it so cheap.  If I had paid anything like full price I would have been fuming.