Battery Storage recommendations

[Thorfun]

11 hours ago, 7750matt said:

i've got the luxpower 3.6

with pylontech batteries

do you find the 3.6kW discharge rate sufficient for your needs?

[Radian]

11 hours ago, 7750matt said:

i've got the luxpower 3.6 with pylontech batteries works fine i turned off the chinese internet  port. and i just access it locally.

How does that play out? Is there an OEM app that finds it on the LAN and communicates entirely locally - or have you got hold of the API and rolled your own control/monitoring system?

[Dave C]

On 05/06/2022 at 11:10, Thorfun said:

do you find the 3.6kW discharge rate sufficient for your needs?

Not the original poster, but I've also got the luxpower 3.6+pylontechs, and yeah - 3.6kW is fine. Obviously it's not hard to exceed if you try - kettle + oven would do it - but in practice even when I'm cooking it doesn't tend to go much over 3.6kW, when you've got multiple hobs plus the oven on it tends to be with the hobs on well under maximum power. Putting the kettle on can easily push usage over, but that's only for a couple of minutes each time, so not really significant.

 

I suppose it does require a bit of thought if you're trying to optimise your usage ... e.g. hold off running the washing machine until after you've finished cooking ... but it's not hard to stay under 3.6kW of draw the vast majority of the time.

I guess in mid winter when the heat pump is drawing 1-2kW a lot of the time it'd be harder to stay under 3.6kW, but that's also going to drain the batteries down fairly quickly so there's less need to care - I expect to have to draw on the grid for a substantial amount of power each day anyway once the heating is running and the batteries will get fully used regardless, so no real point in trying to avoid the grid at that point.

[Thorfun]

2 hours ago, Dave C said:

Not the original poster, but I've also got the luxpower 3.6+pylontechs, and yeah - 3.6kW is fine. Obviously it's not hard to exceed if you try - kettle + oven would do it - but in practice even when I'm cooking it doesn't tend to go much over 3.6kW, when you've got multiple hobs plus the oven on it tends to be with the hobs on well under maximum power. Putting the kettle on can easily push usage over, but that's only for a couple of minutes each time, so not really significant.

 

I suppose it does require a bit of thought if you're trying to optimise your usage ... e.g. hold off running the washing machine until after you've finished cooking ... but it's not hard to stay under 3.6kW of draw the vast majority of the time.

I guess in mid winter when the heat pump is drawing 1-2kW a lot of the time it'd be harder to stay under 3.6kW, but that's also going to drain the batteries down fairly quickly so there's less need to care - I expect to have to draw on the grid for a substantial amount of power each day anyway once the heating is running and the batteries will get fully used regardless, so no real point in trying to avoid the grid at that point.

thanks for this. we're having a Quooker tap so kettle usage doesn't really count for us! 😉 

 

money is quickly running out and so it's things like battery storage that are going to have to take a back seat but if I can get a small 3.6kW luxpower and a couple of Pylontech batteries as a starter then I can add to it over the years if required.

[joth]

7 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

thanks for this. we're having a Quooker tap so kettle usage doesn't really count for us! 😉 

 

 

actually it does: the quooker blasts on its 3kW load immediately after you pull each and every cuppa so it has the same issue.

TBH I wish it had an eco mode where it just used 1kW to slowly reboil after a cuppa, and only cranked on the 3kW element if you pull several litres from it.

And for periodic reheating, even more so: having a 500W element to gently re-boil would be far more efficient throughout a dreary PV day than short-cycle blasting 3kW into it.

 

As it stands it's actually really inefficient if we're heating water for pasta etc, as we pull boiling water from the quooker then put it straight on the inductions hob, resulting in them both being on simultaneously, making a 6kW+ load which very likely pushes over the inverter output.

 

 

 

[Thorfun]

5 minutes ago, joth said:

 

actually it does: the quooker blasts on its 3kW load immediately after you pull each and every cuppa so it has the same issue.

TBH I wish it had an eco mode where it just used 1kW to slowly reboil after a cuppa, and only cranked on the 3kW element if you pull several litres from it.

And for periodic reheating, even more so: having a 500W element to gently re-boil would be far more efficient throughout a dreary PV day than short-cycle blasting 3kW into it.

 

As it stands it's actually really inefficient if we're heating water for pasta etc, as we pull boiling water from the quooker then put it straight on the inductions hob, resulting in them both being on simultaneously, making a 6kW+ load which very likely pushes over the inverter output.

 

 

 

thanks Joth. something to consider then. thing I like about the Squirrel Pod is that I can easily add and extra one later on to increase the discharge amount if we find that 3.6kW isn't enough. 

[Pocster]

34 minutes ago, joth said:

 

actually it does: the quooker blasts on its 3kW load immediately after you pull each and every cuppa so it has the same issue.

TBH I wish it had an eco mode where it just used 1kW to slowly reboil after a cuppa, and only cranked on the 3kW element if you pull several litres from it.

And for periodic reheating, even more so: having a 500W element to gently re-boil would be far more efficient throughout a dreary PV day than short-cycle blasting 3kW into it.

 

As it stands it's actually really inefficient if we're heating water for pasta etc, as we pull boiling water from the quooker then put it straight on the inductions hob, resulting in them both being on simultaneously, making a 6kW+ load which very likely pushes over the inverter output.

 

 

 

I was considering a qooker . Not a cheap item ; wondered if it was really worth it compared to a kettle . Regarding electric consumption- does it really matter for the minute or two it’s on ? ( kettle or hot tap ) .

[Russdl]

@pocster The Quooker is definitely worth it. Stupid expensive, will never pay itself back but worth it. 
 

@joth I’ve only ever seen our Quooker draw 1kW after a cuppa however I’ve never looked to see what it’s drawing after filling a saucepan etc. Have they got 2 elements?

[Thorfun]

31 minutes ago, pocster said:

I was considering a qooker . Not a cheap item ; wondered if it was really worth it compared to a kettle . Regarding electric consumption- does it really matter for the minute or two it’s on ? ( kettle or hot tap ) .

we picked up our Quooker at Grand Designs Live the other month. got 20% off which was a massive saving! and then I can claim the VAT back to make it even cheaper.

[Thorfun]

12 minutes ago, Russdl said:

The Quooker is definitely worth it. Stupid expensive, will never pay itself back but worth it. 

we can't wait. at the moment it's in a box in the basement but every time I flick the kettle on in the current house I think 'one day I won't have to do this!'.

[joth]

 

1 hour ago, Russdl said:

@joth I’ve only ever seen our Quooker draw 1kW after a cuppa however I’ve never looked to see what it’s drawing after filling a saucepan etc. Have they got 2 elements?

 

We have a Quooker Combi (7L tank to supply the kitchen DHW as well as boiling) and yes it looks like it has a larger element: 2.2kW vs 1.6kW

 

And yes, I misremembered: looking at the dashboard ours draws 2.3kW (slightly over its rating) when reheating, not 3kW

 

 

1 hour ago, Russdl said:

@pocster The Quooker is definitely worth it. Stupid expensive, will never pay itself back but worth it. 

 

Agree. We settled on it pre-pandemic. Now there's always someone working at home, and often 2 of us, it's even more appreciated. And possibly even pays back, in terms of working hours saved!!

 

1 hour ago, pocster said:

Regarding electric consumption- does it really matter for the minute or two it’s on ? ( kettle or hot tap ) .

 

In the context of this thread, yes: the lower the peak power it draws, the more easily it be satisfied from the battery or PV inverter (so cheap / free cuppa). The more it draws peak, then more of it will on average will have to come from the grid.

 

Over a whole year it draw about 90kWh in background load (keeping the tank warm) plus whatever you use in hot water.

 

 

[7750matt]

On 05/06/2022 at 11:31, Radian said:

How does that play out? Is there an OEM app that finds it on the LAN and communicates entirely locally - or have you got hold of the API and rolled your own control/monitoring system?

 

yes rolled out my own control/monitoring.  i couldnt find any other app that does what i wanted.

 

it's all joined up now, all integrated.. so batteries charge to a sufficient level off-peak, based on the prediction for sunlight tomorrow/later today.   

 

otherwise you'd have to keep checking BBC weather yourself and judging it, and hoping, and never forgetting to check. we're busy enough.

 

it could be done with almost any solar energy storage system, any inverter pretty much.   

 

we were sold the luxpower so that's what i had to work with.

 

[Radian]

2 hours ago, 7750matt said:

otherwise you'd have to keep checking BBC weather yourself and judging it, and hoping, and never forgetting to check. we're busy enough

Have you looked at the Solcast API?

[7750matt]

On 07/06/2022 at 08:44, Radian said:

Have you looked at the Solcast API?

 

yes it's amazing, it forms part of the decision making algorithm. it's not 100% accurate here, manchester, sometimes it's under and sometimes its over. so had to compensate with other weather api's, which gives a more accurate reading for our location.   

 

it just allows you to utilise the off peak tariff more effectively. off peak tariff on its own just doesnt work out for us. but with an EV and solar panels, and battery ESS   = massive savings each day. and effortless when it's all tied together/joined up with software APIs. 

 

we do use a lot of electricity here. only the boiler is Gas. so we dont cook with gas. and during summer we use the immersion heater for warming the cylinder. (because we have solar, it's cheaper than gas.)

 

 

[7750matt]

On 05/06/2022 at 11:10, Thorfun said:

do you find the 3.6kW discharge rate sufficient for your needs?

 

yes as somebody else said, it's easy when cooking to go over 3.6 rate. but it's only for half and hour in the evening. we are looking at a Wind Turbine and another inverter, so the two combined will give us greater than 3.6 rate.   but we're not doing that for that reason, it's like 15p per half hour if we go to 5kw by accident for a bit at tea time when the kids are home from school. but a larger inverter capacity will solve that.

 

we only cook with Electricity also. so if you have a gas hob you wont exceed it unless you put microwave on and kettle and oven. and then you wont be drawing from the grid for long. 

 

 

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, 7750matt said:

 

yes as somebody else said, it's easy when cooking to go over 3.6 rate. but it's only for half and hour in the evening. we are looking at a Wind Turbine and another inverter, so the two combined will give us greater than 3.6 rate.   but we're not doing that for that reason, it's like 15p per half hour if we go to 5kw by accident for a bit at tea time when the kids are home from school. but a larger inverter capacity will solve that.

 

we only cook with Electricity also. so if you have a gas hob you wont exceed it unless you put microwave on and kettle and oven. and then you wont be drawing from the grid for long. 

 

 

no gas here and I could also handle going over 3.6kWh for a short period of time. But what I like about the Squirrel Pod by Infinity Innovations is that you can add a second inverter and increase the discharge to 7kWh. so it's a very scalable solution and not something that can be easily done with the Lux Power. The Squirrel Pod is basically a Lux Power inverter but they've adapted it to allow multiple inverters to run together to boost discharge rate.

[gc100]

I’ve got some very dumb questions if someone could help.

 

I have a 6k array feeding an non hybrid inverter and that’s it currently. 
 

I contacted a local supplier to get a quote for some battery storage and they wanted to replace the inverter with a hybrid which given it’s only a year old seems not very good.

 

As I under these squirrel pods are AC to 48v converters and sit after the inverter. I have some basic questions about this sort of setup:

 

- How does the pod know when to draw electricity when we are generating vs just drawing off the grid?

- If we are not consuming any power will the batteries start supplying towards the grid or does it’s just equal out?

- I don’t have fit payments, but I would/should get permission from the DNO to have this setup? Why is that?

- On this thread there is talk of Emergency supply with some units . I have a generator socket which I could plug in during a power supply issue (quite possible this winter given the situation). Given generators sin waves can be choppy as hell should I be trying to isolate solar equipment?

- At some point in the future I will be owning a EV car. How could I have a system that basically charges the battery storage first, then the car before pushing it out to the grid. Do I need an all in one system or can I add this ‘logic’ later?

 

many thanks for any pointers 

[Nickfromwales]

On 06/06/2022 at 15:28, Thorfun said:

thanks Joth. something to consider then. thing I like about the Squirrel Pod is that I can easily add and extra one later on to increase the discharge amount if we find that 3.6kW isn't enough. 

Isn't it the number of cells, not inverters ( BMS ), that dictates that max discharge rate, no?

[Thorfun]

34 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Isn't it the number of cells, not inverters ( BMS ), that dictates that max discharge rate, no?

it's both with the Squirrel POD. a single POD has a max discharge rate of 3.5kW which increases with the number of batteries, but add another POD and you can increase that to 7kW with enough batteries. 

 

details below:

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

4 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

it's both with the Squirrel POD. a single POD has a max discharge rate of 3.5kW which increases with the number of batteries, but add another POD and you can increase that to 7kW with enough batteries. 

 

Not from what I'm reading there.

2x batts = 3kW max discharge.

2x batts + extra pod still = 3kW max discharge rate.

The extra pods only permit system size / capacity expansion when more batteries are introduced. The energy comes from the batteries, so they dictate everything.

[Thorfun]

52 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Not from what I'm reading there.

2x batts = 3kW max discharge.

2x batts + extra pod still = 3kW max discharge rate.

The extra pods only permit system size / capacity expansion when more batteries are introduced. The energy comes from the batteries, so they dictate everything.

Yep. It’s what I meant but obviously didn’t word it well! That’s why I thought the document would do the talking for me. 😉

 

for me it’s perfect as I can start small as funds are rapidly running out and then if I find I need more storage or higher discharge I can add batteries and another Pod to suit. 
 

when I finally get this ******* house finished and the batteries all hooked up I’ll report back as to what it’s like and how it all performs. But that could be a while! 😂

[Marvin]

10 hours ago, gc100 said:

- I don’t have fit payments, but I would/should get permission from the DNO to have this setup? Why is that?

Hi @gc100

 

When connected to the grid there is the potential for your PV system to supply power to the grid. A survey is carried out to check that the cabling to the substation and onward is capable of taking the potential PV supply. The DNOs have agreed that it's safe for every household to supply 3.68kW back to the grid but beyond that will need checking and sometimes additional work to a grid connection may be necessary, like upgrading your connection to a 3 phase supply.

 

We applied for 6kW (which is defined not by the panels but your inverter maximum output) and it took a few months to get approval and the survey cost £300 plus VAT.

 

I think the assumption is that 6kW is the max my inverter could supply and if I want to overload it with 10kWs of panels and burn my house down when the inverter goes up that's my affair.

[gc100]

32 minutes ago, Marvin said:

Hi @gc100

 

When connected to the grid there is the potential for your PV system to supply power to the grid. A survey is carried out to check that the cabling to the substation and onward is capable of taking the potential PV supply. The DNOs have agreed that it's safe for every household to supply 3.68kW back to the grid but beyond that will need checking and sometimes additional work to a grid connection may be necessary, like upgrading your connection to a 3 phase supply.

 

We applied for 6kW (which is defined not by the panels but your inverter maximum output) and it took a few months to get approval and the survey cost £300 plus VAT.

 

I think the assumption is that 6kW is the max my inverter could supply and if I want to overload it with 10kWs of panels and burn my house down when the inverter goes up that's my affair.

yes understood that thanks (we have permission for 8k), but why does adding batteries into the mix mean you need to go to them again? We are already pushing electricity their way..

[Marvin]

Just now, gc100 said:

Why does adding batteries into the mix mean you need to go to them again?

Sorry miss understood. I don't know the answer.... and would like to know myself. I thought when there was no mains power the inverter shut down so no potential power to the grid in that circumstance.

[Dillsue]

13 minutes ago, gc100 said:

 but why does adding batteries into the mix mean you need to go to them again? We are already pushing electricity their way..

If the batteries are AC coupled then they have the potential to feed into the grid in addition to the 6kw PV you have approval to export. If your batteries can push out 5kw and your PV push out 6kw then your DNO will want to assess you potential export as 11kw.