Benrh Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 I currently have an outdated oil fired heating system and I need to replace the boiler, oil tank and pipework etc. I have been in touch with a Air source heat pump provider who quotes a flat £14995.00 install for and ecodan 8kw heat pump, 170 litre hot water tank, 10+ rads etc. Having had a survey done I am due to meet with a sales manager to finalise details. In regards to RHI I have been advised I would receive just under £11K from RHI over 7 years. I have a detached 5 bed house and wondered if this is setup would be suitable and if £15K is about right Any advice would be appreciated, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 (edited) What is the square metreage of the building. 5 Bedrooms says nothing. Is it detached, single or multi storey, exposed or sheltered, how much sun does it get. What age is the building and do you know the thermal properties of the building. Edited January 24, 2020 by SteamyTea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benrh Posted January 24, 2020 Author Share Posted January 24, 2020 Thanks for reply, detached two storey. Large front and rear gardens with Neighbours either side So gets sun most of the day. Not sure on size but a lot larger than a typical new build 5 bed house (a bit vague I know) House was built mid 70s has cavity insulation and recently had new windows and doors to most of the house (still a few left to replace). Never have heating on over 18 degrees and never switched on during the night FYI thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Worth measuring it up, and seeing if you can find out what sort of cavity wall insulation there is. As you have new windows, it should be easy to work out the thermal losses though them. Do you know how much energy you use for heating at the moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benrh Posted January 24, 2020 Author Share Posted January 24, 2020 1852sq ft, not sure what sort of cavity insulation. Only guide I can give is around £1200+ pa oil bill. The guy came round this evening and answered a lot of concerns I had and by adding metering onto this system got me an extra £1600 so I’m now looking at a total of £12500k rhi. I have confirmed an install date for a few weeks time but am still a little apprehensive although they don’t get paid until I’m 100% happy with the install. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 Our previous house was 5 bedrooms a little over 150 square metres. 17 years old, reasonably insulated but not particularly air tight. we used to spend about £800 pa on heating oil. If you are spending £1200 thats half as much again as we were. Before just blindly saying yes to a heat pump, what heats the house? Radiators or under floor heating. If radiators they will have to run at a high temperature where heat pumps are not at there best efficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 I think before you part with any of your hard earned money you need to get your heat loss calculated. This will give you an idea of how much energy it's going to take to maintain your house at a nice temperature. You said you got a survey done. What info is in their results. Oil is fine now as your boiler fires up and heats the water to over 70 degrees which you then use to heat your rads. This just wont happen with a heat pump. It can't get the water in your tank to this high a temp and still run efficiently no matter what the heat pump guy says. Heat pumps work well with underfloor heating as this only needs water at 35-45 degrees depending on your heat loss. Then you have the issue with your DHW. Ask them how will the heat pump provide you with enough hot water for showers baths etc. Have you access to gas or even priced up just changing the oil boiler to a newer more efficient model. You could end up spending £15k on a system that can't provide you with enough heat or hot water without costing you a fortune in electric each year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbiniho Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 56 minutes ago, Benrh said: adding metering onto this system got me an extra £1600 so I’m now looking at a total of £12500k rhi. Have you actually been on the rhi website and used the payment calculator yourself? Rather than just listen to the salesman? I hope you havent gone for metering for payment? Or is it the performamce metering you have gone for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobbiniho Posted January 24, 2020 Share Posted January 24, 2020 If you have a recent EPC then you can do the calculation yourself https://www.gov.uk/renewable-heat-incentive-calculator Dont forget that the total KWH required to provide DHW and space heating will reduce after the ASHP is installed, and you need to get a post instillation EPC completed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, Benrh said: 1852sq In metric that will be 172 m2 14 hours ago, Benrh said: £1200+ pa oil bil In litres that will be, at 45p/litre, 2,667 litres In kWh that will be 28,000 kWh (10.5 kWh/litre) If your boiler works at 70% efficiency then you use a shade under 20,000 kWh a year If you deduct 3 kWh/day.person for hot water (going to assume there is 3 of you) then 3,300 kWh/year. This leaves ~16,700 kWh for space heating. Or ~100 kWh/m².year. Which seems high to me, but I have made some assumptions. Edited January 25, 2020 by SteamyTea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 And playing with those numbers above. 16,700kWh for space heating each year. Assume you need the heating on half the year = 186 days = 89kWh average heating per day. Some days will be more, some days will be less. Assume you run the heating for half the day = 12 hours that's an average heat input of 7.4kW On the coldest days you might need twice that, so I would say 15kW heat pump minimum All VERY approximate but gives some idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 47 minutes ago, ProDave said: Assume you run the heating for half the day = 12 hours that's an average heat input of 7.4kW Yes, does not leave any headroom. Or the usual 30% oversizing to help increase efficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benrh Posted January 25, 2020 Author Share Posted January 25, 2020 Thank you for all your responses I will look into further info from your suggestions and advise where I can. If my Oil heating system was Ok i would leave it for now however my old steel tank needs replacing as it’s rustling plus i would need to install a concrete base as it’s currently sitting on rotten wood timbers!. Boiler is 15+ years and sitting outside in a Small brick built outhouse. The boiler needs replacing and moving due to wanting to extend. Hot water tank also needs moving. Rads needs replacing in most of house plus pipework needs attention. My choices are either £12k+ on replacing and moving oil system or around £3k (after rhi) with an Ashp. Ashp is certainly the best option for me with all the issues i have with my current setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benrh Posted January 25, 2020 Author Share Posted January 25, 2020 21 hours ago, Declan52 said: I think before you part with any of your hard earned money you need to get your heat loss calculated. This will give you an idea of how much energy it's going to take to maintain your house at a nice temperature. You said you got a survey done. What info is in their results. Oil is fine now as your boiler fires up and heats the water to over 70 degrees which you then use to heat your rads. This just wont happen with a heat pump. It can't get the water in your tank to this high a temp and still run efficiently no matter what the heat pump guy says. Heat pumps work well with underfloor heating as this only needs water at 35-45 degrees depending on your heat loss. Then you have the issue with your DHW. Ask them how will the heat pump provide you with enough hot water for showers baths etc. Have you access to gas or even priced up just changing the oil boiler to a newer more efficient model. You could end up spending £15k on a system that can't provide you with enough heat or hot water without costing you a fortune in electric each year. Underfloor heating would be great but not an option. One of our bathrooms has and electric shower and the other I’m currently ripping out and adding another shower as none of us use a bath so wouldn’t have an issue with hot water. No possibility of gas in my area and as mentioned in last post my current oil system needs completely replacing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benrh Posted January 25, 2020 Author Share Posted January 25, 2020 This may give some further details on my energy usage etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benrh Posted January 25, 2020 Author Share Posted January 25, 2020 21 hours ago, Hobbiniho said: If you have a recent EPC then you can do the calculation yourself https://www.gov.uk/renewable-heat-incentive-calculator Dont forget that the total KWH required to provide DHW and space heating will reduce after the ASHP is installed, and you need to get a post instillation EPC completed Thank you for this I did the calculation and comes out at around £4500 based on my EPC from 18 months ago. I will send this on querying their figures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benrh Posted January 25, 2020 Author Share Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) 23 hours ago, Hobbiniho said: Have you actually been on the rhi website and used the payment calculator yourself? Rather than just listen to the salesman? I hope you havent gone for metering for payment? Or is it the performamce metering you have gone for? Honestly I’m not 100% Im waiting on this addition in writing however I believe it is the RHI Metering and monitor package Edited January 25, 2020 by Benrh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 So going by that info you will be using the heat pump to get the water temp to 50 degrees and each day have your immersion lift it till 60 degrees. Did they explain this part to you?? What is so bad with the current system that needs replacing apart from the boiler i.e have you had bother with leaking pipes or rads. Have you got any other companies out to quote for doing the same job?? Have you also got a price for just changing the boiler and whatever else needs replacing?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benrh Posted January 25, 2020 Author Share Posted January 25, 2020 28 minutes ago, Declan52 said: So going by that info you will be using the heat pump to get the water temp to 50 degrees and each day have your immersion lift it till 60 degrees. Did they explain this part to you?? What is so bad with the current system that needs replacing apart from the boiler i.e have you had bother with leaking pipes or rads. Have you got any other companies out to quote for doing the same job?? Have you also got a price for just changing the boiler and whatever else needs replacing?? They did mention the immersion lift. I haven’t had any other Ashp quotes but may do so. The current system I have is on its last legs if it was just the boiler I would consider sticking with oil but the cost to get the system sorted and elements moved will end up being Similar in price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 I was pretty close on the heat requirement figures, or they just used a slightly different price for the oil. I notice that the DHW uplift is once a day, 170 lt, by 10°C is 2 kWh/day, or, at 17p/kWh, £125/year. Changing your radiators is not going to be a straight swap. As ASHP work at a lower temperature, you need radiators with a larger surface area. It may be worth getting some quotes from ordinary plumbers about the cost of changing these, and any pipework. That bit is simple plumbing. Just say that they need to be bigger radiators as you are having an ASHP rather than oil. Then you can hunt around for a 12 kW heat pump, they tend to be a lot cheaper bought separately. If you get a monoblock inverter one, they just sit outside, no 'double plumbing' or special installation needed. Everything, apart from the controls, are in the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 £8k would get new rads and an external oil boiler - another £1k would add a 250 litre UVC whilst they have it all to bits. I don’t think your saving by going to electric / ASHP will be as much as you think and the RHI will come in less so you’ll take much longer to get the investment back without some serious work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benrh Posted January 27, 2020 Author Share Posted January 27, 2020 Decided to hold off installation for a few weeks and get a comparable quote. Second company is offering an LG Therma V R32 instead of the Ecodan so will be interesting to see how they compare. Will keep you posted 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c13pep Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 On 24/01/2020 at 09:37, Benrh said: I currently have an outdated oil fired heating system and I need to replace the boiler, oil tank and pipework etc. I have been in touch with a Air source heat pump provider who quotes a flat £14995.00 install for and ecodan 8kw heat pump, 170 litre hot water tank, 10+ rads etc. Having had a survey done I am due to meet with a sales manager to finalise details. In regards to RHI I have been advised I would receive just under £11K from RHI over 7 years. I have a detached 5 bed house and wondered if this is setup would be suitable and if £15K is about right Any advice would be appreciated, thanks My house is 6 bed semi (1960s) with 22 radiators which was converted from LPG to ASHP 5 years ago with great success after a shaky start. My own installation was obviously retro fitted with the radiators being, in the main, replaced for `doubles` after being worked out by the plumber. My criteria was specific in that the main rooms had to be capable of reaching 25 degrees due to my wife's ongoing health problems The system had to generate enough hot water to supply 2 bathrooms, 1 ensuite, 1 cloakroom and the kitchen Resulting system was Ecodan 14 Kw outside unit, matching Hydrobox in roof space plus 300L HW tank also in roof The system is run as a `normal` boiler would run switching off at night but on all day The HW temperature is set at 42 - 52 degrees which is very hot without being scalding We encountered difficulties at the start due to the system wanting to remain in economy mode all the time but finally fine tuned by Mitsubishi Best advice is to find an experienced and successful installation team (electrician + plumber + refrigeration engineer + someone experienced in setting up these systems to your criteria). The Ecodan system is biased to always maintain hot water in preference to the heating system, apart from that we are extremely pleased with the system and its reliability My RHI is £240/quarter and the system cost £12500 to install running costs are £220/month for my all electric house We also have a 4Kw solar panel system but would also recommend solar hot water panels Obviously the costs would be considerably less if household temperatures were lowered, however not possible in my case Hope some of this helps CHRIS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benrh Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 On 29/01/2020 at 19:52, c13pep said: My house is 6 bed semi (1960s) with 22 radiators which was converted from LPG to ASHP 5 years ago with great success after a shaky start. My own installation was obviously retro fitted with the radiators being, in the main, replaced for `doubles` after being worked out by the plumber. My criteria was specific in that the main rooms had to be capable of reaching 25 degrees due to my wife's ongoing health problems The system had to generate enough hot water to supply 2 bathrooms, 1 ensuite, 1 cloakroom and the kitchen Resulting system was Ecodan 14 Kw outside unit, matching Hydrobox in roof space plus 300L HW tank also in roof The system is run as a `normal` boiler would run switching off at night but on all day The HW temperature is set at 42 - 52 degrees which is very hot without being scalding We encountered difficulties at the start due to the system wanting to remain in economy mode all the time but finally fine tuned by Mitsubishi Best advice is to find an experienced and successful installation team (electrician + plumber + refrigeration engineer + someone experienced in setting up these systems to your criteria). The Ecodan system is biased to always maintain hot water in preference to the heating system, apart from that we are extremely pleased with the system and its reliability My RHI is £240/quarter and the system cost £12500 to install running costs are £220/month for my all electric house We also have a 4Kw solar panel system but would also recommend solar hot water panels Obviously the costs would be considerably less if household temperatures were lowered, however not possible in my case Hope some of this helps CHRIS Thanks Chris appreciate the feedback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benrh Posted February 5, 2020 Author Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) Received a comparable cost and salesman was a lot more knowledgable than other company. RHI estimates for both were around the £10500-£11k so negligible. first quote of £15k includes a Ecodan 8.5kw pump and 170 litre tank plus replacement of 13 rads. Estimate of £775 electricity bill second quote of £13800 was for LG R32 Therma-V 12kw Monobloc plus a 250L Horizontal Unvented cylinder plus replacement of 9 rads. Estimate of £840 electricity bill Certainly edging towards the second quote based on spec, price and the actual company Any advice? thanks Edited February 5, 2020 by Benrh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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