WC Blockage

[Carrerahill]

16 hours ago, Onoff said:

 

 

 

 

Looking at that arrangement I am surprised where the blockage appears to be! 

 

You said your system backed up at one point and was never the same, did it back up that pipe much? Is it possible that a very high water level let waste gather high up in the pipe, say that horizontal section and allowed it to set up a bit like poo-concrete? 

 

Another thought, is the blockage much further down, like outside on the vertical and in fact that whole section it backed up?

 

If it slowly drains away, how many flushes until it backs up again?

 

 

[Onoff]

23 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

 

Looking at that arrangement I am surprised where the blockage appears to be! 

 

You said your system backed up at one point and was never the same, did it back up that pipe much? Is it possible that a very high water level let waste gather high up in the pipe, say that horizontal section and allowed it to set up a bit like poo-concrete? 

 

Another thought, is the blockage much further down, like outside on the vertical and in fact that whole section it backed up?

 

If it slowly drains away, how many flushes until it backs up again?

 

 

 

When it backed up both downstairs and the single upstairs were backing up. How dare up the pipe I don't know

 

The grey soil in the loft goes thru x2 45s at the eaves then straight down the wall in the black 110mm, on the left in the picture below. It passes through a branch which takes the new, downstair's bathrooms soil. Then into the rest bend and onto the manhole.

 

Also shown is the downstairs cloak wc coming in from the right. Both downstairs loos are flushing fine. The man hole is clear. 

 

The blockage then is either in that vertical black 110 above the branch, the two 45s or the "flat" grey in the loft as aforementioned. 

 

 

After it drains, one flush from the upstairs ensuite and it looks like this:

 

 

Poocrete...lovely term! ?

[ProDave]

My money is in a blockage being at the branch outside at the bottom of that black pipe running down the wall, where it goes through to the downstairs wc.

 

There is no way it would have backed up any higher otherwise it would have been spilling over the rim of the downstairs wc.

 

 Is there any rodding access to the black outside pipe, either from above or below?  Send a rod up from that manhole and hope it goes straight up rather than into the downstairs branches.

[PeterW]

I’d check if it’s the elbow as it turns to drop into the vertical. Judicious use of a rubber mallet bouncing it gently along the sides of the pipes upstairs will give a good indication of where it’s blocked as the sound will change. 

[Onoff]

16 minutes ago, ProDave said:

My money is in a blockage being at the branch outside at the bottom of that black pipe running down the wall, where it goes through to the downstairs wc.

 

There is no way it would have backed up any higher otherwise it would have been spilling over the rim of the downstairs wc.

 

 Is there any rodding access to the black outside pipe, either from above or below?  Send a rod up from that manhole and hope it goes straight up rather than into the downstairs branches.

 

The branch has a screwed on access cap like this:

 

 

I fitted it as I was worried about future access to the near horizontal wc waste pipe from the new, wall hung wc downstairs. That should give great access.

 

However, I unscrewed the cap last night for the first time, in the dark and it looks like I need to take a Starrett to it to open it up? Maybe there's a close fitting, push fit plug I didn't see under the screw cap?

 

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Onoff

[Onoff]

4 minutes ago, PeterW said:

I’d check if it’s the elbow as it turns to drop into the vertical. Judicious use of a rubber mallet bouncing it gently along the sides of the pipes upstairs will give a good indication of where it’s blocked as the sound will change. 

 

Thinking that too now as trying to lift the pipe from the double branch end and it's very heavy as though the whole, near 3m length is full. 

[ProDave]

15 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

Thinking that too now as trying to lift the pipe from the double branch end and it's very heavy as though the whole, near 3m length is full. 

Make sure you have your "wet weather" PPE on for when it does uncouple....

[dpmiller]

41 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

The branch has a screwed on access cap like this:

 

 

I fitted it as I was worried about future access to the near horizontal wc waste pipe from the new, wall hung wc downstairs. That should give great access.

 

However, I unscrewed the cap last night for the first time, in the dark and it looks like I need to take a Starrett to it to open it up? Maybe there's a close fitting, push fit plug I didn't see under the screw cap?

 

 

yep, pretty sure there's an insert under the cap.

[LA3222]

16 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

yep, pretty sure there's an insert under the cap.

There is...I have this very same fitting on the foul pipe I put in for the static caravan.  The lid unscrews and then there is a plastic insert underneath which just pulls out.

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

 

When it backed up both downstairs and the single upstairs were backing up. How dare up the pipe I don't know

 

The grey soil in the loft goes thru x2 45s at the eaves then straight down the wall in the black 110mm, on the left in the picture below. It passes through a branch which takes the new, downstair's bathrooms soil. Then into the rest bend and onto the manhole.

 

Also shown is the downstairs cloak wc coming in from the right. Both downstairs loos are flushing fine. The man hole is clear. 

 

The blockage then is either in that vertical black 110 above the branch, the two 45s or the "flat" grey in the loft as aforementioned. 

 

 

After it drains, one flush from the upstairs ensuite and it looks like this:

 

 

Poocrete...lovely term! ?

Have you got a spare length of soil..?? I’d put it into that branch and see if you can add a bit more weight to the blockage by adding a bucket of water slowly, but watch for the level in the pan also. 
 

Pair of rubber mallets or similar would be my first call just to find where the blockage is. 

[joe90]

Can you not rod (with a hosepipe) from that chamber in your garden up the rest bend? If it’s solid you will feel the resistance and at least know where the blockage is. That blank behind the screw on cap should be removable with a screwdriver/thin lever as I have come a across those with a rubber o ring on them. Just make sure you have wellies etc on when “it” gives way ?

[Onoff]

15 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Have you got a spare length of soil..?? I’d put it into that branch and see if you can add a bit more weight to the blockage by adding a bucket of water slowly, but watch for the level in the pan also. 
 

Pair of rubber mallets or similar would be my first call just to find where the blockage is. 

 

I like that idea, a bit worried though the extra weight might push out that fitting or cap on the lower branch. Plus if it doesn't "go", I've got more water in there to wait for it to shift.

[Onoff]

15 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Can you not rod (with a hosepipe) from that chamber in your garden up the rest bend? If it’s solid you will feel the resistance and at least know where the blockage is. That blank behind the screw on cap should be removable with a screwdriver/thin lever as I have come a across those with a rubber o ring on them. Just make sure you have wellies etc on when “it” gives way ?

 

I swear you lot just want to see me covered in No2! ?

[joe90]

Just now, Onoff said:

 

I swear you lot just want to see me covered in No2! ?

Just make sure you record it ?

[Carrerahill]

3 hours ago, Onoff said:

 

I swear you lot just want to see me covered in No2! ?

OK having seen the rest of the images and read your additional info and as mentioned by someone else above, the blockage could not have been backing up too high or else your ground floor pan would have overflowed.

 

If you knock the soil pipe in the loft, or even try to slightly lift it by hand does it feel heavy like that whole horizontal section is full?

 

I think if if that was me I would get a piece of garden hose (perhaps a bit you are happy to bin afterwards) and some gloves on and shove it down the access point and round that bend from the loft. If it doesn't clear by the time you get to the horizontal section (i.e. passed via the 2 No. 45°'s) then I would abandon ship there and try it from outside.

 

Get the camera on the tripod first.

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

In my experience, the usual cause for soft blockages like this is a build up of stuff (often partially dissolved toilet paper) on the walls of fairly flat runs of pipe, inside the house.  I think what happens is that a few bits get stuck, then dry out partially and stay stuck, then more bits stick to them, until such time as the restriction is enough to trap a "wodge" of stuff coming down the pipe.  At that point the liquid slowly filters through, leaving solids behind.  Things gradually get worse, as more and more solids build up, and toilet paper, which usually breaks down into fine fibres fairly quickly, ends up not being in enough liquid to do so where the blockage is.

 

The advantage of using strong sodium hydroxide (caustic soda) is that it aggressively breaks down organic matter, including paper.  This fragments the blockage and allows it to be flushed away.

 

The first house we bought had the foul drain run relocated, when the house went onto main drainage, and this resulted in a run across the back of the house that had very little fall.  It used to regularly block, and at first I used to borrow rods, poke hoses down it, and generally get covered in muck clearing the blockage.   Someone gave me the tip about using sodium hydroxide and I've never had to rod a drain clear since.  A strong enough dose of sodium hydroxide solution, ideally as hot as a bucket can withstand, will generally work its way through any blockage within an hour, often less.  This will also clear rainwater pipes etc that are blocked with dead leaves, as it will dissolve them just as well.  On the shelf behind me I have six1 kg packs of sodium hydroxide, left over from the last time I had to do this job.  I think there may well be another couple of 1kg packs tucked away in one of the cupboards.

[Onoff]

7 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

OK having seen the rest of the images and read your additional info and as mentioned by someone else above, the blockage could not have been backing up too high or else your ground floor pan would have overflowed.

 

If you knock the soil pipe in the loft, or even try to slightly lift it by hand does it feel heavy like that whole horizontal section is full?

 

I think if if that was me I would get a piece of garden hose (perhaps a bit you are happy to bin afterwards) and some gloves on and shove it down the access point and round that bend from the loft. If it doesn't clear by the time you get to the horizontal section (i.e. passed via the 2 No. 45°'s) then I would abandon ship there and try it from outside.

 

Get the camera on the tripod first.

 

 

 

Vertical black stack outside is empty as in it "tapped" hollow. You can anyway feel its empty just by wobbling it. I removed the screw on cap and the push fit plug. Clean as a whistle and I could see right along the horizontal waste to the downstairs bathroom wc.

 

Now the weird bit: Up in the loft I started tap, tapping on the pipe with an off cut of 15mm copper. It sounds hollow from where it exits at the eaves back to about halfway along the horizontal pipe. From the half way point back to the two grey branch arrangement sounds solid and "full". I put a straight edge on the pipe and there's maybe a very slight dip in the middle. I meant to but never finished, cut ever decreasing height supports thus theres only one like this cut and glued to a ceiling joist:

 

 

500ml of that cleaner @jamiehamysuggested but I think the blockage is too far down. 

 

Just awaiting Amazon for the drilly, twisty unblocker thing.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Mirrors my experience of always getting soft blockages in a fairly flat run of pipe.  It may be that very slight variations in the fall along the pipe create enough flow variation to cause some "stuff" to just start to stick and build up on the pipe at that point.

[joe90]

19 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said:

Mirrors my experience of always getting soft blockages in a fairly flat run of pipe.  It may be that very slight variations in the fall along the pipe create enough flow variation to cause some "stuff" to just start to stick and build up on the pipe at that point.

which is why I was careful to support my drain runs located under floors where access was not possible and a min diameter of 50mm. I have found that pipes that exit hot water (baths basins and showers) can sag quite a lot over time causing just such a problem.

[ProDave]

I often wonder how this one will fair in the long term.

 

 

Dead flat run between the joists.  Out of shot it then turns right to the en-suite with not much fall on it.

 

Far too many places for a blockage to occur imho and nowhere for rodding access.

 

It was done by a plumber. 

[Onoff]

???

 

There were moments when I didn't think it was going to go though!

 

SWMBO fed the whole 6m of the snake through the blockage to start with, think she should have stopped when she hit the "wall" and started rotating then. Tbh there wasn't that much resistance. Anyway, nothing happening so I got the cordless on it. Still nothing. Think in the process I've killed this brand new Silverline snake only delivered this evening. (That's a strip down I'm not looking forward to).

 

Put the other half litre of the cleaner down and still nothing. I was hand rodding like a good 'un and nothing was moving. Poured a couple of buckets of hot with bleach down and still nowt.

 

I remembered school physics lessons with the vacuum pumps that ran off of the bench taps. So with me in the upstairs ensuite, No1 son on the stairs and SWMBO in the main downstairs bathroom we went for a synchronised flush. OMFG! Things started vibrating in the loft as the turd slug started shifting, the AAV was clattering like a demented Kango. Then the whoosh we'd been longing for and the sound of sweet running water down the pipe. 

 

Celebrating with some crumpets and a pint of Levy.

 

Thanks to all who chipped in as ever.

 

[ProDave]

Enjoy the moment.  Tomorrow you will be rodding the turd berg out from where it next came to rest under the garden.......

[jamiehamy]

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

???

 

With me in the upstairs ensuite, No1 son on the stairs and SWMBO in the main downstairs bathroom we went for a synchronised flush. OMFG

 

I must have missed the 'when Onoff fitted a toilet to his stairs... ? 

[Onoff]

2 minutes ago, jamiehamy said:

I must have missed the 'when Onoff fitted a toilet to his stairs... ? 

 

No.1 son was stationed on the stairs to relay "when" to SWMBO downstairs as she's a bit deaf and I was fed up shouting myself hoarse. We had the cloak wc as backup should the triple whammy approach have been necessary!

[Onoff]

I think it's backing up again. Would a duff AAV in the loft cause a problem?