Agricultural Land/Approaching Owner

[Lottie65]

Hi all,

 

Newbie here fantasising about building our dream house! After your opinion on the following:

 

 

We live in a semi-rural area in the South-East of England. There is one main road in the village (about 1.5miles long) and there are house either side of it all the way along.

 

There is one area where in-between two lovely, big houses and opposite some lovely, big houses that is farmland – a small farm of about 6acres. The visible part of the farm is in-between all of these houses facing the road. There are some derelict barns that have half fallen down and look absolutely terrible – in the two years I’ve lived here there have been two cars visible in the barns that are complete wrecks as well so it is basically like it’s not used at all. That’s the only part you can see from the road. If you look at satellite view it looks like any of the ‘working’ farm buildings are much further back and it also looks like there is some sort of house but I can’t be 100% sure.

 

I would like to approach the owners and ask if they are willing to sell any part of their land. Ideally the front part (the part visible to the road). Probably half and acre. We’d probably have to make sure they could access the farm behind with some sort of road which I’m fine with (it would be a very wide plot).

 

I understand a couple of the obstacles are as follows:

 

1. They don’t want to sell!

2. This is agricultural land so we wouldn’t get planning permission anyway.

 

 

IF they did want to sell to us what do you think our chances of gaining planning permission are? Bearing in mind the current eyesore this is amongst million pound plus house – so we would be improving the general look of the area which I think appeals to councils?

I also don’t know if this is active/working farmland – I can’t find any information in regards to what they farm. If it is an active farm and they want to carry on with it I am not preventing this either if we only buy a portion of the land so feel this could work in my favour?

 

I understand you would have to draw up a contract if it got to the stage of them be willing to sell stating sale would be subject to planning. I am also aware that they could also decide to gain planning permission themselves before selling because obviously the land would then be worth a lot more!

 

Basically, do you think I stand a chance and if you do, how would you suggest I approach this?

 

Thanking you in advance and apologies for the lengthy post!

 

Charlotte

[ProDave]

I can't fault your logic, but having lived in the SE, I would be pretty sure the planners will say no, green belt etc.  The village I lived in had several such plots all had been refused, even a lovely barn that would have made a nice house was refused permission to convert.

 

[ToughButterCup]

11 minutes ago, Lottie65 said:

...

Basically, do you think I stand a chance and if you do, how would you suggest I approach this?

 ...

 

A chance? Yes- with a relaxed planning regime.

How? Buy and wait.

We did that. (30 years wait). One changed sentence in the planning law made it possible.

 

...  presumption in favour of Sustainable Development...

[nod]

Also when you are making an offer Bare in mind that any valuation will take into account that there are Million pound houses opposite and will base the land price on the final worth of the new build 

It can be an expensive gamble 

 

But in saying that I’ve a friend who paid 50 k for land at an old quarry No chance of planning according to local parish 

Five years on he is building a house that will be worth a million plus Though I think he would be heading for a divorce is he agreed to sell 

[Lottie65]

Thanks all - 30 year wait is defintely a bit more than I was hoping for!

 

In regards to land value then - unless I was the luckiest person ever and the owners sold me part of the land at agricultural value do you think it is more likely the value will be based on the final house value when built? How is this assessed? Is this the clause that some owners of land put in prior to sale that once the house is built they will be owed more money dependent on the value of the built house?

[Patrick]

@Lottie65

It s called an uplift clause. Standard on most land sales nowadays. So even if you get it at agricultural value, they still will take a cut (most likely 50% of the uplift) should you get PP on the land  within a specific period (e. G. 15years)

If they selling it s most likely a mix between agriculture land prices and an uplift clause, meaning they will sell it to you on much more than  agricultural average prices but a lot less than  building land (e. G. The land would be worth 10k as agricultural and 100k as a building plot,  they might want an offer over 60k plus an uplift clause should there be planning permission granted)

If you want to make sure that you get planning and buy the land subject to gaining  PP, expect to pay full, or even more than average building land prices.

At the end, it is all negotiable. But it looks like they don't desperate need to sell and you really want that piece of land. This is hardly ever a good situation to get  a bargain.

at the end it's all down to your negotiation skills.

and for that, you need to find out A LOT MORE about the current owner. Who are they, what are they doing (for living). Type of characters. Rich/poor. Any debts? You can find loads in public records, a lot else through chat in the pub.

this all helps building your negotiation strategy ( you can approach different people from a different angle)

Edited December 28, 2019 by Patrick

[Stewpot]

If there are houses either side, then I would guess that there is an improved chance of getting PP - it will  be within an established development area. BUT, farmers are canny people - if it's likely to get PP, they will have thought about this; they may already have turned down several offers from other people like you, because they know it has development value. You may get lucky, but I think the odds are against you getting any sort of a bargain - though that may not be your main objective.

 

You may also fine that the neighbours will prefer having tumble down barns next door rather than another house, and will object to any plans.

 

Have you searched the planning portal, to see if anyone else has applied for PP in the last few years? If someone has, and it's been refused, then you know to move on. Also, it'd probably be worth six quid to get the title register and title plan from the land registry website - that may tell you lots, including if there are any charges that would hinder your plans.

 

Good luck.

[SteamyTea]

Look into the local planning plan first.  I know little about this, but there are areas that can easily be built on, and areas that cannot be easily built on.

The look of the current buildings has nothing to do with planning really.  And looks has little to do with planning anyway.  My Father designed and built an electrical substation, he was very proud of it (bottom of Cryers Hill at the far end of Hughenden Park), was still a concrete block to everyone else.

 

[Lottie65]

Thank you  - I have looked into the Uplift Clause more now and can see that it is extremely likely this will be implemented. I guess the only way round this would be to offer more money in the first place on agreement there would be no such clause...

I think in this situation I would not be happy to purchase this land with any uplift clause, especially considering I would only be buying a portion of it.

 

I have only been able to find some past planning permission on our local council's webisite - they applied for some sort of storage facility and permission was granted. There is nothing else on there. Can I search for for other pemission that has been requested on Planning Portal then?  I think I will definitely obtain the title register from Land Registry as well.

 

This is still a pipe dream after all as there are many obstacles so any other suggestions of anything else I should do prior to seeing if the owner is even willing to sell would be welcome.

 

Thanks again

[Patrick]

Again. Research research research. There is really no easy way around this. Getting the  title register is a starting point. Finding out as much as possible about the owner of the land is the next step.

If they run their farm as a business, chances are they might be registered as a Ltd = more info available.

 

[Stewpot]

The planning portal (as accessed via your council's website) should be able to tell you of any application that has been made in at least the past ten years, whether the permission was granted or refused, or the application was withdrawn. If you have already done a search, then you will probably already have seen all there is to see. Each local authority has their own corner of the planning portal, and there does seem to be some variation in how comprehensive is their implementation of it, but most of the authorities I've searched give a map-search option, where you can choose a point on a map, and the search results will all be within a certain distance of there. This is useful if the location does not yet have an address.

 

Rather than get involved in cussed uplift clauses, you could make an offer that is conditional upon PP. That is to say, you apply for planning permission (probably outline at this stage), and if it is granted, you go ahead with the purchase. If it is refused, you are not committed to the purchase. A solicitor will advise you in detail, but this is a conventional way to buy land, and is possible because you don't have to own land that you are applying for the permission on.

 

The down side is, that your offer will, inevitably, need to be higher, because you are circumventing the risk, and are buying a plot with PP (even though you paid for the permission). Also, if the PP is granted, but you still withdraw, the seller has a valuable piece of land to sell, and you will get no return for your cost and effort to get the permission

[Jeremy Harris]

As a general rule of thumb, no one in their right mind is likely to sell land that has a reasonable chance of gaining planning consent for less than its value as a plot, simply because the uplift in value associated with planning consent is massive, maybe up to 100 times the value of the land without it.

 

The fact that there are disused barns on the land does open up the possibility of building a house within the footprint of them, even if consent for development elsewhere on the land is very unlikely, for reasons such as being categorised as an important open space.  Open spaces between houses within a settlement are often seen as being important and there is often a desire to retain them, particularly in order to maintain the character of rural settlements.  We have a couple of open spaces between houses in our village that I doubt will be developed in my lifetime, as there seems to be a strong view that they are important to the character of the village as a whole.

 

You may as well approach the landowner head on with the request, if only to find out if he/she is amenable to the idea or, perhaps, has already considered it, sought advice and decided that it's unlikely that PP would be granted, as the price will be what the price will be - that's set by local supply and demand, in the main.  The landowner may well not have considered a Class Q conversion, for example, although that is very limited in terms of what you are allowed to do.

[Ed Davies]

4 hours ago, Stewpot said:

and is possible because you don't have to own land that you are applying for the permission on.

 

Indeed, but, just in case anybody gets the wrong idea, you do need to tell the owner you're applying for the permission (or at least you do in Scotland but I think it's UK wide).

Edited December 28, 2019 by Ed Davies

[Temp]

+1

 

A planning application has to be accompanied by a certificate stating you are either the owner or the owners agent or have notified the owner.

 

You could try arguing that getting planning permission will cost £10k and the plot is worth £10k as agricultural land so both of you are putting 50% into the deal. Then point out you are taking all the risk. If planning is refused you loose £10k but he keeps the land. Therefore a 50:50 in the profit is actually generous. You will pay half the value of the plot with PP. Use your own numbers. Find out what its worth as agricultural land.

 

Any contract you agree needs to be carefully worded to give you the right to buy at a price but not the obligation to buy. It must also oblige him to support your planning application and not take any action that might cause refusal. Try and find a solicitor that has done business contracts not just conveyancing.  You don't want him changing his mind after you get PP or selling to a third party

Edited December 28, 2019 by Temp