Zoot EXTention- now.

[zoothorn]

As I'm into final small jobs from builder (soon to be rid of please.. just go!) I've got a few tricky loose ends to tie up, one is the reveal problem.

 

Another I noticed on the (very very small) smallprint on the bottom of the invoice (for roof, TF, groundwork/ the lions share of costs).. "to be paid in 14 days or 10% charged will be added". As I had some extremely tricky things to consider & wrangle with him about (due to this wretched overall +14"H mistake that's caused so many repercussions) I only noticed this wording on 16th day sunday. I paid next day in a blind panic, having been forced to I thought before the BCO checked the 3 major things on the invoice. Extremely stressful this & another whole night without sleep worrying- tbh I'm angry about this this insult to injury after all the list of +14" H countless repercussions, & outright lies I've had to put up with. I've not even brought the subject up.. so I assume will not be surcharged another £1.8k for being 3 days late.

 

Anyone thoughts on this 10% fright I had/ have?

[newhome]

45 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Anyone thoughts on this 10% fright I had/ have?

 

Ignore it. I would say that's a fairly standard clause to get people to cough up promptly. He won't be able to force you to pay extra unless he takes court action and I'm certain he won't go ahead with that for the sake of 3 days! 

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, zoothorn said:

 

 

So is it normal I have only 50m to glass? or should a builder be making it say min 80mm or whatever? surely there HAS to be a minimum figure here or he'd not be able to put insulation > he'd be in same boat as me if he were to be doing inside work.

going to need a photo here as can’t envisage the gaps etc to help you

[dpmiller]

just consider that the windows attach the the timber frame , Zoot, so there isn't an easy way of having the window inside a bigger hole without it being at least a thermal bridge and probably a nightmare to securely seal.

[zoothorn]

8 hours ago, newhome said:

 

Ignore it. I would say that's a fairly standard clause to get people to cough up promptly. He won't be able to force you to pay extra unless he takes court action and I'm certain he won't go ahead with that for the sake of 3 days! 

 

This is what someone else said. The clever thing it does minimum, is put pressure on unsuspecting clients.. like me.. to gain a bargaining position: IE if I quibble last things he can snap back 'I don't want you to have to charge you 10% extra', forcing me to drop any concerns.

 

You see I've one last BIG hurdle: what's added to the bill to come (~1/3rd of total): specifically the 'tidy-up-jobs' I was confident he'd do inc/ foc.

 

You see after making my FIRM upset known re. the overall depth issue (awful) he relented asking what I wanted then? I said the drain around, & skim off drive jobs pls. He agreed in a huff, & scribbled out the £435 / £400 figs for the jobs off a copy of my quote while we negotiated. I was alarmed you see he added these two figs to a new quote after continual "don't worry.. we'll put a drain in for you" assurances each time I mentioned the build depth issue. Or, other palm-off assurances after quizzing the depth issue, which turned out to be outright lies: "the added 1 ft will be added to lower room, yes I promise" which never happened (if this was indeed so/ true: the dividing floor, ceiling above, crucial knock-thru height, french door & window positions would all be unnafected by groundwork this wretched 14" too low).

 

Now you see its dawning on me maybe he plans another U-turn on these two tidy-up-job promises, & the £435/ 400 will appear on the final bill.. then "14 days to pay or 10%" pressuring me to pay these extras he promised me, without kicking up another fuss.

 

A total nightmare from 20mins into job on day1, at 3.20pm, when I see his no2 measuring down from the wrong point up near gutters (I even told him! he ignored me, intimidated & telling me he knew best & am I the fkn builder!?). So my concern & stress constant from the 1st hr all through build to now job done. No fancy plan would've stopped this bull-in-china-shop builder in his huge rush simply measuring from a wrong point, that's the only certainty I have.

 

 

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, dpmiller said:

just consider that the windows attach the the timber frame , Zoot, so there isn't an easy way of having the window inside a bigger hole without it being at least a thermal bridge and probably a nightmare to securely seal.

 

Understand this dpm.. but its just clear a heck of alot of plastic shaved off each side to fit them. A ton of white chip shavings evidence all over the place (awful for this lovely environment here). Windows meant to continue on from existing ones, same style etc: orig have 80mm between reveal & glass. So these @ 50mm not only a pain to sort out inside work, but look wider than they should/ the glass area etc.

 

There must be a mfr minimum recommendation of fitting/ max shaving off each side/ or min width of reveal > to glass. There has to be surely.

[dpmiller]

so the windows were supplied oversized for the openings?

[Roundtuit]

3 hours ago, zoothorn said:

There must be a mfr minimum recommendation of fitting/ max shaving off each side/ or min width of reveal > to glass. There has to be surely.

 

Normal practice would be to order the windows to fit the openings...  From memory, mine (alu-clad timber) were ordered to structural opening size less approx 11mm on each side to allow for fitting/compriband/sealing.  No shaving required or possible.  Don't know anything about UPVC, but I'd be concerned about the integrity of the frame if it's been hacked about that much.

 

As regarding additional charges, as others say, ignore it.  Whilst the money is in your account, you hold all the cards and don't have to part with it until you're happy with what you're paying for.  If that means waiting for a BC inspection, then so be it.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Roundtuit
typo

[zoothorn]

4 hours ago, dpmiller said:

so the windows were supplied oversized for the openings?

 

I just don't have the experience to answer: I was sort of asking this Q myself on here.

 

When the lower window width was narrowed to 920mm from 1150mm, the opening was measured precisely as you'd expect.. more than that from a client pov I have reason to make the assumption the window would fit without a ton shaved off each side (b b but you can never assume/ did you agree a window size tho? No?? well its all your fault then.. is what I almost expect as reply now).

 

I mean there -are- certain assumptions made from a client. Eg I get a quote for a 'roof'. I have no prior knowledge nor does Mrs. miggins at no73 of its materials. I ask about slates which she maybe wouldn't. Quote good > its built. But did we agree roof batons? no. But there they are. Did we agree ridge tiles? gutters? soffits? A membrane under the tiles? no discussion but all there.. IE you'd just naturally assume the roof would be built including various sections that make up a roof, without needing to ask, or knowing their constituant names.

 

At the moment I'm trying to tie up last bits: I got a quote for a "Knock- through from existing bedroom" & now its made I don't know if its been finished, or left for me to finish, or what. If I ask builder its "oh you can do that, its easy" (meaning its simple enough with the skills he knows I have -limited- to leave it to me to finish off.. which I could but shouldn't I if I'm paying him.. and is it "finished" at all from his pov?) so there's no point asking him.

[Declan52]

Did you get a brand new window custom made for your opening or did you get one that the builder sourced that was close enough and required  a bit of adjusting??

[Onoff]

Tell him you can't afford any more extras as you need to buy a new camera! ?

[dpmiller]

Bearing in mind that in NI and Scotland windows are installed slightly differently, I'm still kinda intrigued as to how the frames are fixed to the TF especially if they've been planed down...

[Declan52]

18 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

Bearing in mind that in NI and Scotland windows are installed slightly differently, I'm still kinda intrigued as to how the frames are fixed to the TF especially if they've been planed down...

Just hammered in tight.

[zoothorn]

On 12/12/2019 at 14:38, Declan52 said:

Did you get a brand new window custom made for your opening or did you get one that the builder sourced that was close enough and required  a bit of adjusting??

 

I can't possibly have any way of knowing Declan. I just don't trust him enough: if I ask it'll just be hoodwink (or truth) "oh no custom made".. 50/50.

 

One thing I do know, on a different point, is very bad condensation on the outside panes of double-door-french doors, & both windows. Considering I'm about to be landed with bill for final 1/3rd cost of overall build, I need to establish if these windows are duds or ok (& condensation will go once I do xyz inside stuff). If I ask him.. again I can't trust his answer (which will either be "oh no, fine/ normal".. &/ or.. "will clear once you do yyz inside stuff" by which time I'd have been forced to pay bill).

 

Went to look at lovely sunset across view opposite fr. doors.. & couldn't see a thing thru both whole panes covered in moisture.

[zoothorn]

On 12/12/2019 at 16:19, Declan52 said:

Just hammered in tight.

 

I was told screws in frames > timber, plus foam. I can see the foam, but it could well be another lie if any screws were used at all.

[Declan52]

9 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

I can't possibly have any way of knowing Declan. I just don't trust him enough: if I ask it'll just be hoodwink (or truth) "oh no custom made".. 50/50.

 

One thing I do know, on a different point, is very bad condensation on the outside panes of double-door-french doors, & both windows. Considering I'm about to be landed with bill for final 1/3rd cost of overall build, I need to establish if these windows are duds or ok (& condensation will go once I do xyz inside stuff). If I ask him.. again I can't trust his answer (which will either be "oh no, fine/ normal".. &/ or.. "will clear once you do yyz inside stuff" by which time I'd have been forced to pay bill).

 

Went to look at lovely sunset across view opposite fr. doors.. & couldn't see a thing thru both whole panes covered in moisture.

If it's forming on the outside that means they are working as they should. To put it simply the outside pane will be the coldest as no heat is escaping from inside so once it gets below the dew point you will get condensation.

[Declan52]

11 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

I was told screws in frames > timber, plus foam. I can see the foam, but it could well be another lie if any screws were used at all.

Open the window and look along the frame to see if you can spot some screws.

[zoothorn]

17 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

If it's forming on the outside that means they are working as they should. To put it simply the outside pane will be the coldest as no heat is escaping from inside so once it gets below the dew point you will get condensation.

 

 Ok good- reassuring that (you can see how my confidence in him is shot tho, whatever he does especially says).. tho I dont understand it, if the outside pane remains the same temp regardless of what temp the inside pane is, due to the buffer layer between.

 

The only thing different in this case is bc its not inside-fittd yet, the inside panes are a bit colder to my adjacent master bedroom (but not much- this room's freezing cold/ almost equal temp Id say) which both windows are clear.

[zoothorn]

15 hours ago, Declan52 said:

If it's forming on the outside that means they are working as they should. To put it simply the outside pane will be the coldest as no heat is escaping from inside so once it gets below the dew point you will get condensation.

 

hang on .. you mean this is the way they'll always be-? IE after I do xyz inside stuff, they will remain as they are?

 

At the moment they have condensation across the whole 4x panes all day long, so much so I cannot see out of them. This is not conceivably acceptable for any new window/ or any window at all: my existing 20 yr old windows aren't covered in condensation, they're normal/ I can see out of them.

[dpmiller]

it'll be different once the room is heated.

[zoothorn]

10 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

it'll be different once the room is heated.

 

you mean once the room is insulated, or a heater put on?

 

how will this make any difference to the difference in temp between the inside vacuum & outside cold pane tho (which is the only thing that can possibly determine why condensation forms on the ouitside pane)? I just don't understand.

 

 

[dpmiller]

there isn't ZERO heat loss across the unit.

[zoothorn]

Just now, dpmiller said:

there isn't ZERO heat loss across the unit.

 

sorry dpmiller- I just don't understand what you mean by 'unit' here (or the implications of zero heat loss across any part of a window).

 

 

 

[dpmiller]

double-glazed glass unit. Warmth from inside the room heats the outer glass, raising it's dewpoint.

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

double-glazed glass unit. Warmth from inside the room heats the outer glass, raising it's dewpoint.

 

ok understand that- which implies its not a vacuum as I thought then-?

 

again when you say warmth from inside.. do you mean insulation (which is not introducing any heat), or.. introducing some heat via a rad or something?