Charging points (rate of installation)

[Temp]

According to a report in The Times we need to instal 2300 charging points a day every day until 2050 to meet our climate change target. Is this realistic? How many smart meters a day have been installed?

[Jeremy Harris]

10 minutes ago, Temp said:

According to a report in The Times we need to instal 2300 charging points a day every day until 2050 to meet our climate change target. Is this realistic? How many smart meters a day have been installed?

 

 

Currently there are only around 200,000 EVs on the road in the UK, and most of these will probably have a home charge point.  The rate of growth seems to be quite high, ~100,000 since 2017, and that seems to be increasing quickly.  If we assume that the number over the last year was about 75,000, then that's around 200 installations per day, given that not all owners have a home charge point.

 

It looks as if the installation rate has to increase a lot, but that will be partially offset by new homes being built with charge points (not sure when this becomes mandatory, it's still at the consultation stage I believe).  The biggest problem is all the homes that have no off street parking.  No one has yet come up with the perfect solution for this, and the few pilots that have been carried out haven't been a great success (not enough EVs around being part of the problem I think).

 

There are an increasing number of EV drivers who just rely on fast charging on route, especially amongst the Tesla fraternity, it seems.  Not something that would work for us, I find home and destination charging very easy, plus it meets ~95% of my charging needs.

[Carrerahill]

7 hours ago, Temp said:

According to a report in The Times we need to install 2300 charging points a day every day until 2050 to meet our climate change target. Is this realistic? How many smart meters a day have been installed?

Charging points probably take quite a few days to install (when all required utilities and trades play fair) - there is the civils, dig-up the pavement up, lay in electrical duct, electric board need to connect up to something (or electrical contractor needs to connect into a suitable DB for example inside a shopping centre etc.) then it needs to be installed, commissioned, and the ground reinstated. 

 

2300 a day would require 2300 crews a day - this is not happening. 

 

Also, what grinds my gears is the carbon footprint to install these, no one ever considers that, all the waste of roads and pavements being dug up and spoil carried away and then new material trucked in - these processes must be made greener. We must adopt the European way of doing things and go for more setts and slabs - they lift them, remove the sand/MoT do the repairs, put the material back in, compact it and relay the same setts and slabs. It takes one 2-3 man crew on 1 van 1 day to do a full repair start to finish. Very little waste. 

 

Then there is another issue, if all these charging stations were to go into service the grid would collapse on day 1. Guaranteed, there is only enough energy generation capacity to cope, when demand increases fossil fuel plants ramp up first, nuclear plants take a little longer due to processes and the current state of the plant. A friend of ours is a nuclear systems engineer for EDF - he works mainly at Hunterston but travels around many of their sites - usually 50% of there reactors are down for maintenance, Hunterston B only just restarted after over a year of downtime for safety concerns and is only allowed to operate until 2023 (assuming the cracks do not get worse or something else fails). So really electric vehicles just move the pollution issue somewhere else. We were also involved in a project to design LV distribution and swithgear for a new retail area below student accommodation, builder was trying to get a good BREEAM rating and some green award from the council so they wanted to put in loads of charging stations. When we submitted our connection calcs to Scottish Power we were told there was no enough supply locally and to allow it they would need to run a new HV cable and site a new substation (which they requested was in the new build). When we did the maths, worked it all out, we unanimously voted to remove all but 1 and came up with other options to obtain good green accreditation. 

 

There was a report last month which calculated how much more environmentally friendly an EV was - compared to a similar ICE vehicle driven the same miles (it was about 100,000miles) it would take 10 years for the EV to come out on top! 10 years! They will be scrapped by then. It was suggested that running an ICE vehicle for longer would work out cleaner than an EV - I can believe it.

 

The batteries are made from lithium mined in Chile and Bolivia etc. it is then shipped to China, made into batteries then shipped all around the world - the locals in these places are in trouble with their health and the ground is being contaminated something rotten as the brine pools leech into the groundwater.

 

You will also have noted from the media or fuel pumps that fuel is now badged B7 or E5 - diesel and petrol respectively, which is the maximum bio-diesel/ethanol. When running at or near allowable content the result is reduced carbon dioxide from the equivalent of 1,000,000 cars (UK Gov Source so easily reduce by 10%). 

 

Whole thing is a farce and the politicians don't understand the technology or science to realise they are pushing something just as damaging or indeed more damaging than the current option. 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Carrerahill
Edit - forgot to add "cars" after "1,000,000"

[Jeremy Harris]

27 minutes ago, Carrerahill said:

Charging points probably take quite a few days to install (when all required utilities and trades play fair) - there is the civils, dig-up the pavement up, lay in electrical duct, electric board need to connect up to something (or electrical contractor needs to connect into a suitable DB for example inside a shopping centre etc.) then it needs to be installed, commissioned, and the ground reinstated.

 

Home or destination charge point installations take between a couple of hours to a day absolute maximum to install, and the vast majority of EV charging is done at a home, or destination (workplace or hotel) charge point.  No need for DNO involvement most of the time, either (other than notification afterwards in some cases).  The average time taken seems to be around half a day.  It all depends on how easy it is to get a cable from the CU to the charge point, really, as that's the most time consuming bit of the job.  Actually installing the charge point and earth rod, then testing it, is less than an hour's work. 

 

Roadside charge points seem to be going in reasonably quickly now, too.  Tesla converted all their Superchargers in the UK to CCS in a couple of months, ready for Model 3 deliveries, and they seems to be rolling new Supercharger parks out fairly quickly, often with a at least half a dozen fast charge points.  There are over 27,000 public charge  point connectors available now, and that number is increasing at a rate of about a dozen or so new ones per day.  There are currently just under 10,000 public charge point locations.

 

Decent fast charge points, like the Supercharger network, or perhaps Ionity when it really gets going, can charge a car in less than half an hour (the latest Superchargers can add ~70 miles range in 5 minutes).  As these come on stream the number of charge points per location becomes less critical, as charging times will be significantly reduced.

 

The major waste of money by government was to subsidise the installation of car park slow charge points.  These are a complete waste of money, as at best they only charge at around 28mph, and the charge cost is often around 25p to 30p per kWh (or more, as many have a fixed minimum charge).  No one seems to use any of our local car park charge points, as there's no point, really.  I can charge at home for around 2p/mile (or much less, if the sun's shining), so why would I want to top up with less than 30 miles of range for nearly 4 times the price?  Some car park charge points are even slower, for example the ones in Amesbury charge at just 14mph, and have a minimum charge of £6 to use them, so an hour parked there will get just 14 miles of range at about 43p/mile, which is completely bonkers.

 

[Ferdinand]

3 hours ago, Temp said:

According to a report in The Times we need to install 2300 charging points a day every day until 2050 to meet our climate change target. Is this realistic? How many smart meters a day have been installed?

 

The FT will raise you 4000  charging points a day !!!

 

https://www.ft.com/content/9cba0522-f564-11e9-b018-3ef8794b17c6

 

The report it is all based on was commissioned by Scottish Power from Capital Economics.

 

(Worth a note that this is all based on zero carbon footprint by 2050 - not the 2030 demanded by the recent demonstrators.)

 

Link to their Stats:

https://www.scottishpower.com/news/pages/uks_net_zero_pathway_revealed.aspx

 

Quote:

 

Quote

Notes to Editors

Key UK targets for the path to Net Zero by 2050

• Number of electric vehicle charging points needed by 2050: 25,299,147
• Number of these which will be installed in public places: 2,627,280
• Estimated cost to install chargers across UK: £45.9 billion
• Number of homes that will install heat pumps by 2050: 22,808,780
• Estimated cost of installing these heat pumps: £192.2 billion
• Estimated network reinforcement cost by 2050: £48.5 billion*
• Estimated jobs supported by decarbonisation investment: 115,780

Key Scotland targets on the path to Net Zero by 2045

• Number of electric vehicle charging points needed by 2045: 2,010,543
• Number of these which will be installed in public places: 198,774
• Estimated cost to install chargers across Scotland: £3.6 billion
• Number of homes that will install heat pumps by 2045: 1,964,438
• Estimated cost of installing these heat pumps: £16.5 billion
• Estimated network reinforcement cost by 2045: £5.2 billion*
• Estimated jobs supported by decarbonisation investment: 10,081

 

Those UK wide numbers imply that 22 milliom heat pumps will cost £8400 each to supply / install).

 

Personally, I prefer careful government regulation and market implementation. 

We could end up with another version of the "Plugin Hybrid Cars bought for tax avoidance that never use their electric drive" problem.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Carrerahill]

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

 

Home or destination charge point installations take between a couple of hours to a day absolute maximum to install, and the vast majority of EV charging is done at a home, or destination (workplace or hotel) charge point. 

In fairness I wasn't referencing those type - this is the on the street version that will not be affiliated with businesses. It's all very well having them attached to M&S at a shopping centre etc. but that is not where the bulk of road traffic exists. We need hard city infrastructure. Many commercial properties will no have the capacity for fast chargers. I just don't see 2300 a day going in.

 

 

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

I'm not convinced that we need vast numbers of fast, on route, charge points, TBH.  Very few EV owners charge a lot when away from home, most seems a bit like me, and charge almost exclusively at home or at a destination (as in an overnight stop).  On route charging is invaluable, but unlike petrol or diesel powered cars, not the most common means of "refuelling".  In about 11 months of EV ownership I've only used an on route charge point a couple of times, as almost all charging is at home, with a bit being at hotels when we've been away. 

[Ed Davies]

19 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

or at a destination (as in an overnight stop).

 

Not just overnight stops, also at work. Could be a very useful form of charging for people who don't have off-street parking.

[Ferdinand]

31 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

sI'm not convinced that we need vast numbers of fast, on route, charge points, TBH.  Very few EV owners charge a lot when away from home, most seems a bit like me, and charge almost exclusively at home or at a destination (as in an overnight stop).  On route charging is invaluable, but unlike petrol or diesel powered cars, not the most common means of "refuelling".  In about 11 months of EV ownership I've only used an on route charge point a couple of times, as almost all charging is at home, with a bit being at hotels when we've been away. 

 

Agree with much of that. The journos have also incorporated I think the Private Chargers in their headlines.

 

Norway, with the highest penetration, has roughly:

 

2.5 million cars.

300k electric cars.

12k (assuming public) charging points in toto, which means one per 25 cars.

 

The stats above at one per 25 cars suggest a UK electric car population in 2050 of 25 * 2.7 millon, implying just under 80 million electric cars.

 

Given that we are more densely populated than Norway, i would suggest that the estimate of public chargers is over-estimated by a factor of perhaps 5.

 

I think what it also misses is that as public transport improves (eg rail passengers up 130% in just over 20 years), it should be practical to shift car modal share to rail, bus, bike over time. I would like to see buses recover and bikes at 10%. Rail and especially light rail are doing well already.

 

500k public chargers in 50 years is 45 a day, or 150 a day if it is to be done by 2030 with a ramp up. Entirely doable.

 

Paxman: Why are these lying bastards lying to me?

 

F

 

Humbert Wolfe:

 

"You cannot hope
to bribe or twist,
thank God! the
British journalist.
But, seeing what
the man will do
unbribed, there's
no occasion to.^"

 

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Temp]

5 hours ago, JSHarris said:

The biggest problem is all the homes that have no off street parking

 

About 7million houses. Although I wont cry too much. Most will be houses that are first in the queue for 5g and cable TV. Just for once there might be an advantage to living in the countryside ?

 

 

[Ferdinand]

7 minutes ago, Temp said:

 

About 7million houses. Although I wont cry too much. Most will be houses that are first in the queue for 5g and cable TV. Just for once there might be an advantage to living in the countryside ?

 

 

 

Value added to parkatmyhouse service for the other houses in the street at the one with the parking space.

 

Or landlords of garages.

 

(Notes that chargeatmyhouse.co.uk was regstered back in 2013)

 

F

Edited October 28, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Temp]

Many houses without off street parking could have a charger if they were allowed to run a cable across the pavement.

 

Perhaps it should be Permitted Development to cut a channel across the pavement in which to lay and cover a charging cable? Would need some sort of standard design?

[Ferdinand]

3 minutes ago, Temp said:

Many houses without off street parking could have a charger if they were allowed to run a cable across the pavement.

 

Perhaps it should be Permitted Development to cut a channel across the pavement in which to lay and cover a charging cable? Would need some sort of standard design?

 

Another option could be a swivelling boom at 2.5m.

[Jeremy Harris]

24 minutes ago, Temp said:

Many houses without off street parking could have a charger if they were allowed to run a cable across the pavement.

 

Perhaps it should be Permitted Development to cut a channel across the pavement in which to lay and cover a charging cable? Would need some sort of standard design?

 

 

The Dutch are allowing charge points to be installed in boxes in pavements by home owners.  Seems a reasonably enlightened approach.  Fairly easy to do in most cases, just a trench across the pavement with a small box set in near the kerb.  The box has a weatherproof socket in, that can be accessed by lifting the lid.  Power can be turned on or off from inside the house, which stops someone else from just charging at the home owner's expense.

 

I've seen a fair few pavements with channel drains cut across them, so allowing something like that to take a charge cable would seem pretty easy to do, practically.  Wouldn't cost a lot, either, just half an hour with a disc cutter to make a groove into which some form of cable channel could be inserted.

[SteamyTea]

5 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

The batteries are made from lithium mined in Chile and Bolivia etc. it is then shipped to China, made into batteries then shipped all around the world

And Australia, USA, Canada, China, Russia, and possibly Cornwall one day.

Not unusual to ship raw materials and finished goods, hard to think of anything that isn't.

Transporting by ship is probably the lowest cost, most fuel efficient and least polluting method there is.

5 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

There was a report last month which calculated how much more environmentally friendly an EV was - compared to a similar ICE vehicle driven the same miles

There will be a report that shows different.  What reports do.

5 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

You will also have noted from the media or fuel pumps that fuel is now badged B7 or E5 - diesel and petrol respectively, which is the maximum bio-diesel/ethanol. When running at or near allowable content the result is reduced carbon dioxide from the equivalent of 1,000,000 (UK Gov Source so easily reduce by 10%)

A million what?

It is still combustion, and often the environmental damage is still greater than burning fossil fuels.  Again, there are reports that argue it both ways.

 

There still needs to be an EV that does 400 miles between charges, but my car ha passed its MOT, it did need new brakes on the front, but they lasted 140,000 miles almost.

So what is all this

5 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

it would take 10 years for the EV to come out on top! 10 years

My car is almost 13 years old, and will last another year I hope.

[SteamyTea]

9 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

The Dutch are allowing charge points to be installed in boxes in pavements by home owners.

Not sure our disability legislation would allow that.  There have been many things removed from pavements because of it.

 

I like the this idea.

21 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Another option could be a swivelling boom at 2.5m.

Just needs a method of being able to use other peoples booms.  Dedicated parking is not a goo idea, we have it, and no one except 3 of us who have lived here the longest take any notice of it, but take a lot of abuse when we ask others to move their vehicles.

[Jeremy Harris]

2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Not sure our disability legislation would allow that.  There have been many things removed from pavements because of it.

 

 

I can't see why they would cause any disability-related issue.  No different to all the thousands of service access covers we already have in pavements, really.  This video shows a chap installing one in The Netherlands:

 

 

[scottishjohn]

6 hours ago, JSHarris said:

The biggest problem is all the homes that have no off street parking. 

certainly in scotland you cannot build a new house with less than off road 2.5 parking spaces -- so not a problem for new builds

[scottishjohn]

29 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

The batteries are made from lithium mined in Chile and Bolivia etc. it is then shipped to China, made into batteries then shipped all around the world

that in all honesty is what needs to be addressed next 

make them recycle it now and get correct pricing sorted out including recyling costs --otherwise you are no better 

,as long as its cheaper to use new AND NOT  recycled lithium --then thats a bobby trap for later and hardly is in line with general outlook  on recyling 

it can be done --just cheaper to mine new stuff  in far off cheap labour locations 

 then we might get some more development in other sorts batteries--

Edited October 28, 2019 by scottishjohn

[Jeremy Harris]

The estimated world wide amount lithium available is around 65 million tonnes, enough to build around 3,250,000,000 Teslas, without recycling any of it.  Other EVs use less of the stuff, there's enough to build about 6,000,000,000 BMW i3s.  The reserves are all over the place, but vary in the ease with which lithium can be extracted.  It seems likely that Australia, Chile and Argentina will remain the biggest producers; currently they have ~75% of the exploited reserves.

 

The biggest EV battery factory is currently in the USA, not China, although it seems likely that the BYD factory in China may overtake the Gigafactory next year, although China still has a way to go in terms of producing high capacity, long life, cells.

[ProDave]

Where to charge is an interesting one.  I am sure if I had an EV most of my day to day use could be dealt with by home charging.  It is when we go away on holiday or to visit relatives that fast en-route charging will be needed. e.g our short break last week was about 400 miles door to door. So both the outward and return journey would have need an en-route charge.

 

This is where you would think motorway services would step up to the mark and provide ample charge points to recharge your car in half an hour while you have a coffee and a break.  But what I hear is many of the motorway charge points don't work, and knowing motorway services prices they would be expensive (we actively try and avoid buying petrol from them for that reason)

 

You would think independent cafe's and restaurants that are close to motorway junctions would be installing lots of fast, cheap charge points, and encouraging people off the motorways.  Exactly the sort of thing that could work if there was a national directory of all available public charge points.  I presume some sort of directory must exist already? (if not is damned well should)

 

Destination charging is another issue. Where we stayed last week was a budget self catering and we opted for free on street parking. There was no public EV charging that I saw nearby, and a budget outfit like this that does not have off street parking cannot install charge points for use by it's guests.  It would be sad if owning an EV forced us to pay more for accommodation just to get somewhere with off street parking and a charge point.

[PeterW]

So a vast amount of Bauxite is shipped from Australia to Iceland to be processed as the energy costs are so low there to smelt aluminum.  There it goes to China for onward processing ... still cheaper than paying the energy costs in either China or Australia to refine it ..!

[scottishjohn]

15 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

The estimated world wide amount lithium available is around 65 million tonnes, enough to build around 3,250,000,000 Teslas, without recycling any of it.  Other EVs use less of the stuff, there's enough to build about 6,000,000,000 BMW i3s.  The reserves are all over the place, but vary in the ease with which lithium can be extracted.  It seems likely that Australia, Chile and Argentina will remain the biggest producers; currently they have ~75% of the exploited reserves.

 

The biggest EV battery factory is currently in the USA, not China, although it seems likely that the BYD factory in China may overtake the Gigafactory next year, although China still has a way to go in terms of producing high capacity, long life, cells.

I accept what you say -but its just not the way forward if we are trying to save the planet from pollution in the future --the old batteries have to dumped somewhere --

[Jeremy Harris]

Just now, scottishjohn said:

I accept what you say -but its just not the way forward if we are trying to save the planet from pollution in the future --the old batteries have to dumped somewhere --

 

Pretty much all EV batteries are recycled, so their component materials get re-used.  Got to make more sense that pumping millions of tonnes of oil out of the ground, shipping it all around the world, then burning it and not recycling anything

[scottishjohn]

2 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

Pretty much all EV batteries are recycled, so their component materials get re-used.  Got to make more sense that pumping millions of tonnes of oil out of the ground, shipping it all around the world, then burning it and not recycling anything

last time i looked into this ,that  was not the case -will hunt again