H F Posted October 25, 2019 Author Share Posted October 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, scottishjohn said: Is this amount above and beyond the quotation /sales contract you signed and returned to them ? if so your good If the price is what you signed for --you just got to suck it up- sounds like a simple contract law problem you should have copy of what you signed and what the job entailed A fair enough assumption - but then I want my Victron inverter delivered to me. While I agreed to the fee and deliverables, we still haven't received the Victron inverter if we are being charged for it, so they're still at fault in either instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 I would consider the "roof access equipment" to icclude any scaffolding required to complete the job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Home Farm said: A fair enough assumption - but then I want my Victron inverter delivered to me. While I agreed to the fee and deliverables, we still haven't received the Victron inverter if we are being charged for it, so they're still at fault in either instance. so you have an offical sales contract itemising these parts with a fitted price which you signed ? and no clauses in the contract about other chargable items no signed contract --and you got problems --he said -she said --and if it goes to court they will only look at paperwork to make the decision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 It seems simple to me. No acceptable invoice, no payment. Next step: a Letter Before Action from them - that protocol requires both sides to evidence everything. That'll flush them out. Sit back relax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H F Posted October 25, 2019 Author Share Posted October 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, scottishjohn said: so you have an offical sales contract itemising these parts with a fitted price which you signed ? No, we don't have any breakdowns or specifics other than those shown in the image at the outset of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H F Posted October 25, 2019 Author Share Posted October 25, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said: It seems simple to me. No acceptable invoice, no payment. Next step: a Letter Before Action from them - that protocol requires both sides to evidence everything. That'll flush them out. Sit back relax. Please elaborate - what is a Letter Before Action? EDIT: I see. Wait for for the installers to issue a Letter Before Action. Why would they need to provide anything at that stage that they are reluctant to do now? Edited October 25, 2019 by Home Farm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H F Posted October 25, 2019 Author Share Posted October 25, 2019 37 minutes ago, scottishjohn said: I would consider the "roof access equipment" to icclude any scaffolding required to complete the job Correct - no issues with them charging us for this - albeit, we don't know how much this was in the greater scheme of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 so you have no signed contract from them where you agreed to the work and the price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpmiller Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 you might need to give us some numbers- could it be you received the Solaredge unit and optimisers in lieu of a Victron hybrid inverter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 15 minutes ago, Home Farm said: Correct - no issues with them charging us for this - albeit, we don't know how much this was in the greater scheme of things. I have to ask this .... Why are you worrying about this now..?? If you agreed a price you found acceptable for solar panels, they have now been installed and are working satisfactory, and you’ve now been presented with the bill - that matches the price you agreed - why are you not prepared to pay it ..?? The supplier has done what they said they would, and it sounds like in moving from estimate to estimate that something got left in or missed, and you’re trying to query the whole thing ..? Turn it round - if the estimate had 21 panels on it, and you looked at the roof and counted 22, how quick would you be trying to pay the suppler for the extra panel ...??? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 58 minutes ago, Home Farm said: [...] Wait for for the installers to issue a Letter Before Action. Why would they need to provide anything at that stage that they are reluctant to do now? Because the law (protocol) requires them to provide full information. Here's chapter and verse. When, (if) the letter comes - be sure to check which protocol is being used. There are a host of charlatan websites offering an LBA for £2 using an out of date protocol. The current protocol is very thorough, and in my opinion, balanced and fair. Most people pay as soon as they get an LBA - even one which uses the out of date protocol. Nothwithstanding @scottishjohn's opinion, I would be inclined to write a very brief letter (requiring proof of delivery) asking for an itemised invoice using the headings given in the quote indictating that as soon as a satisfactory, accurate, itemised invoice is received, you will pay It really is very simple and clear cut. 39 minutes ago, PeterW said: [...] and you’ve now been presented with the bill - that matches the price you agreed - why are you not prepared to pay it ..?? [...] Because @Home Farm's argues the price is not the key issue. HF's concern is that what was asked for might well not to be what was supplied. The fact that the total bill is the same might be a coincidence, or not. Without an itemised invoice the purchaser cannot tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Do you have a box that says Victron on it. That is the usual giveaway. Why did they swap out a 5 kW inverter for a 6 kW one. Seems a bit odd as it is normal to undersize inverters to improve low light level performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 14 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Do you have a box that says Victron on it. That is the usual giveaway. Why did they swap out a 5 kW inverter for a 6 kW one. Seems a bit odd as it is normal to undersize inverters to improve low light level performance. why would a smaller unit work better at low light and what happens in summer when the panels are making 20% more than the invertor is rated for? more like they never expect you to get full power from the panels ,so saving them money please enlighten me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 18 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Do you have a box that says Victron on it. That is the usual giveaway. [...] Tell me more @SteamyTea. What does the presence of a Victron machine (inverter) show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billt Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 6 minutes ago, scottishjohn said: why would a smaller unit work better at low light They don't. In the early days of the PV boom when inverters were expensive you could reduce system costs by using a slightly undersize inverter. As times of peak output are quite infrequent the impact on overall generation is small. At times of high insolation the inverter simply reduces the power that the panels deliver to the maximum power that the inverter can deliver - the nominal maximum output of the panels will only be produced if the load is suitable and an undersized inverter will give an undersized load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 17 minutes ago, scottishjohn said: why would a smaller unit work better at low light Like a car engine, they are not at their most efficient at full rated power. Some of the energy is coming out as thermal, rather than electrical, energy. During the odd times the modules produce way over the inverters rating, the maximum power is 'clipped'. Or basically thrown out as thermal energy. 16 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said: What does the presence of a Victron machine (inverter) show? Shows the inverter was made by them, rather than someone else. The question from @Home Farm was if he had been supplied a Victron inverter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, billt said: They don't Kind of. They can, by taking advantage of the light distribution over a year, produce more by keeping the actual power from the modules, rather that the maximum at a certain radiation levels, say 1000 W/m², which is a rare event. It really depends on the efficiency curve if the inverter. Edited October 25, 2019 by SteamyTea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 11 minutes ago, billt said: They don't. In the early days of the PV boom when inverters were expensive you could reduce system costs by using a slightly undersize inverter. As times of peak output are quite infrequent the impact on overall generation is small. Further, if you used the money saved on the inverter to instead buy a extra or higher rated panels then the low-light output will increase simply by dint of having more panels, at a cost of limited peak output. Averaged over their lifetime this might well give greater annual yield for a given capital investment, especially in places like UK that are not renowned for 365 long cloudless days of sun. If the constraint is not capital cost but space to install them, this logic probably doesn't apply. Likewise as inverters get cheaper and generally more efficient, it doesn't seem so useful to consider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H F Posted October 25, 2019 Author Share Posted October 25, 2019 2 hours ago, AnonymousBosch said: Because @Home Farm's argues the price is not the key issue. HF's concern is that what was asked for might well not to be what was supplied. The fact that the total bill is the same might be a coincidence, or not. Without an itemised invoice the purchaser cannot tell. Thank you AnonymousBosch - this is very well thought through. I am very practical and pragmatic in my approach to such matters and I don't feel particularly inclined to pay for items (or services) that we have no received. If they can prove to me that we genuinely have not been charged for this inverter, I will wire the remainder immediately. The final amount is not the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H F Posted October 25, 2019 Author Share Posted October 25, 2019 1 hour ago, SteamyTea said: Do you have a box that says Victron on it. That is the usual giveaway. Why did they swap out a 5 kW inverter for a 6 kW one. Seems a bit odd as it is normal to undersize inverters to improve low light level performance. No - there was never a Victron box - just SolarEdge. I queried the fact that we were clipping at peak times during the summer - and they replaced it with a 6kW. There was no attempted explanation about lower sized inverters working better at low light levels. I only discovered this fact here on the forums recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Home Farm said: there was never a Victron box What make and model is your inverter? Or do you have micro-inverters on the back of each module, or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H F Posted October 25, 2019 Author Share Posted October 25, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, PeterW said: If you agreed a price you found acceptable for solar panels, they have now been installed and are working satisfactory, and you’ve now been presented with the bill - that matches the price you agreed - why are you not prepared to pay it ..?? The supplier has done what they said they would, and it sounds like in moving from estimate to estimate that something got left in or missed, and you’re trying to query the whole thing ..? Turn it round - if the estimate had 21 panels on it, and you looked at the roof and counted 22, how quick would you be trying to pay the suppler for the extra panel ...??? I think the answer to that is simple. If a price is agreed upon, and you don't get supplied with items that you have paid for then are being taken advantage of. If I paid for a component, in error, I would like to receive this component as I have paid for it. At this point in time, I am being charged for something I have not received, even if I didn't need it to begin with. Do you perceive that as being fair? I'm not a huge fan of paying for things I don't receive. If the installer had fitted an extra panel by mistake, I would have considered paying for it if they charged me a reasonable fee, or I would have allowed them to come back at take it off. Edited October 25, 2019 by Home Farm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H F Posted October 25, 2019 Author Share Posted October 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: What make and model is your inverter? Or do you have micro-inverters on the back of each module, or two. We have one inverter - a 6kW SolarEdge. Don't know the model off hand. And I can't get it off the installers paperwork either because they just stated SolarEdge Inverter. The same issue applies to the Victron inverter - no model, no size. We have one optimiser on each panel from SolarEdge - this was confirmed to me yesterday when I called them. On the quote, it states just SolarEdge optimisers - there is no amount stipulated, model, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, Home Farm said: We have one inverter - a 6kW SolarEdge. Don't know the model off hand. And I can't get it off the installers paperwork either because they just stated SolarEdge Inverter. The same issue applies to the Victron inverter - no model, no size. We have one optimiser on each panel from SolarEdge - this was confirmed to me yesterday when I called them. On the quote, it states just SolarEdge optimisers - there is no amount stipulated, model, etc. Looking at the quote: There are clearly two inverters listed in the price. The Solaredge inverter, that will be the 6 kW one you have, plus a Victron Battery Charger/Inverter, which allows a battery pack to be connected and charged during times when there is excess PV, and discharged when there's little or no PV generation, so cutting down on imported electricity. The slight issue with this is that word "None," above the Victron Battery Charger/Inverter entry. The comma makes me wonder if those two lines should be one, and read "None, Victron Battery Charger/Inverter". The key point may be the timing of the receipt of this quote. If you initially considered having the battery option, but decided against it before this quote was received, then it may be that they have badly amended the initial quote they had drafted, and the Victron line entry is effectively a typo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, Home Farm said: If they can prove to me that we genuinely have not been charged for this inverter The bar of proof on them is very low as it was a "package quote". All they have to do is send an invoice for something like: Components actually provided = £X Labour & administration = £Y Profit = £Z And ensure that the sum of X+Y+Z matches what they billed you for. While it would be polite for them to make the value of X be reasonable, they've got a fair degree of liberty to freely choose the values they want for Y and Z. After all you have no contract that states they can't cover their backend costs, or places any cap on the profit they may make. You can go back and forward digging heels in and insisting they provide this itemized invoice, but I can't see how, if forced to, they could ever fail to invent one that you have no recourse against, unless the profit really does come out so obscene and you can make an argument you are a vulnerable individual and victim to pressure or fraudulent selling. Otherwise I think you need to put less emphasis on having them prove they haven't charged you for things you didn't want, and instead argue you were genuinely expecting to receive an additional, redundant charger/inverter. But the fact it's taken you so long to notice the lack of it somewhat diminishes that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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