Old Cottage Restoration + Extension Project

[JulianB]

Morning All!

 

It’s my first post on here (so be patient with me please!), but I have been lurking in the shadows for a while now!

 

My wife and I (& our 2 daughters) currently live in a grade II listed gate keeper’s lodge (conservation area) which has been subject to some terrible building work in the past (leaky flat roof extension…). We’re in the process of trying to secure planning permission to drop the extension and build something which is sympathetic to its surroundings, larger (in terms of internal floor space) & more energy efficient. We also intend on addressing the poor condition of the old part of the house (which they will naturally be a lot stricter on given its status, but is in poor state of disrepair nonetheless).

 

The property is currently single storey & ‘off grid’ in terms of gas and mains sewage; a good opportunity to research alternative energy sources (ASHP/GSHP, potentially PV if they allow it) as opposed to our current oil fired boiler, together with moving towards a sewage treatment plant (given the change in legislation & the fact that our proposed extension scheme incorporates an element of subterranean, and moving the tank to the lowest point in the garden would enable the system to remain gravity fed). I’m a Vehicle Dynamics Engineer by profession, and have some experience renovating our previous grade II listed cottage (stripped all walls back to stone, addressed structural issues such as roof spread, put down limecrete floor, new heating/electrics/plumbing/underground drainage/windows etc!). We’re hoping to be quite hands on through the project (partly financially driven as usual!); hoping to buy a 2^nd hand digger, quite happy getting my hands dirty, using AutoCad & learning in general!

 

I have done a bit of reading into the principals of PassivHaus which are appealing, however am aware that in its raw form might not be totally compatible with the requirements of a traditional building construction; we’ve had first-hand experience of the trials and tribulations in dealing with solid stone walls and the necessity for good breathability/circulation in our first house (we bought it riddled with damp, so much so that the mortgage lender placed a retention on their offer after the initial survey!). I have come across a few examples where PassivHaus has been incorporated into older buildings, however from memory these consisted of a ‘box within a box’ concept to avoid upsetting the balance of the old building. Unfortunately this is a luxury I doubt we can afford given that we do not have a great deal of floor space available; I’m assuming that once you take into consideration the air gap required + internal insulation to make it worthwhile, you’ve eaten into quite a bit of volume.

 

Below is a quick and dirty brain dump of the main plans / ideas / concerns floating around:

 

Thermal efficiency:

·         Improve floor performance by introducing a Limecrete base (unless there are any better suggestions out there?) – current flooring is laid directly onto earth…

·         Improve window performance – Main outer frames are currently timber, however window opening sections are metal, with all glazing currently being single. We’re hoping we’ll be granted permission to migrate to double glazing (slim-line most likely). With regards to the thermal bridging brought about by the metal frames, current thoughts are either secondary glazing units, or having thermally broken frames made. We’ll also need to think of ways to create the most efficient seal between the metal window frame and timber.

·         Improve front door performance (all timber) – currently very drafty! Thinking the frame might need to be replaced to provide an adequate sealing area – wondering if any modifications can be made to the door itself to help matters (granted that we have no chance of replacing it…)

·         Roof / Ceiling insulation – Currently cold roof setup, however we are thinking of opening it up to expose the vaulted ceiling. I’m minded to think that the main moisture management we’ll have to contend with would be in the walls & floor, and hence might be able to use more modern materials and methods for this area if of a significant advantage. Our thinking is that we will manage room humidity levels through an MVHR?

·         Chimneys / fireplaces: Currently two present, however we’re thinking of closing one off. The idea is to install a log burner in the other…not sure what people’s thoughts were on the associated penalty in doing so (vs blocking it off).

 

Renewable energy options:

·         Have read quite a bit on ASHP vs GSHP and have begun to lean towards ASHP – my concerns however are whether we can bring the house up to a level where the energy requirements can be fulfilled by an ASHP without running in regions where it’s COP isn’t quite as appealing, and if it would also be able to cope with DHW needs, specifically children and baths...We’re happy to go with UFH throughout to maximise efficiency in terms of supply CH temperatures, however have not done enough research into the viability of relying on it solely for DHW. With respect to GSHP, I understand that the initial outlay is significantly higher for potentially not that much COP gain across the year – potentially the need to dig up a field to lay the drainage field for the sewage treatment plant or the need for piled foundations might mean that we could combine this work and bring costs down to a more favourable bracket?

·         PVs – Not really done a great deal of research into what heritage range are on offer and acceptable within conservation areas (I suspect terribly expensive though from experience?). I’m also not sure how well the house orientation + current roof design would lend themselves to this option, and the additional complexities / cost associated vs reward…

 

Extension

·         I’ve mentioned earlier that we’re hoping to incorporate a subterranean element as this was the only solution we could find in order to fit a 2 storey structure which would give us the necessary floor area gains without its presence dominating the original lodge. This adds quite a few layers of complexity – we’d need to underpin a portion of the rear wall of the original lodge to create the lower level, whilst also needing to implement a suitable waterproofing system (although the rear elevation of the extension will be completely out of the ground). From the limited research I’ve done so far on this aspect, I would be more comfortable with an external solution (Type C?) to avoid having channels internally and the complexity involved in having to introduce some system to keep it clean and clear to flow freely etc. However I also appreciate that incorporating a Type C waterproofing method when one of the walls is a retaining / underpinning structure might be somewhat challenging, unless we sacrifice internal area and step another wall off that etc.

·         The next challenge is the proximity to two mature trees (oak 18m tall, Yew 12m tall)…we’re intending to be within 3% of the Yew tree’s RPA…I’ve had a little test dig in the RPA which looked fine and that the Arborist was happy with, but I am wondering if this might imply the need for pile foundations, or whether we could possibly get away with a different type (raft) & if this would lend itself to insulated foundation systems.

·         Construction method: Haven’t really made any decisions in this department…I like the idea of ICF but potentially not terribly straightforward given the abovementioned challenges? Externally, the lower ground floor level will need to be clad in stone, together with stone quoins on each corner. Upper floor level will be rendered.

 

There is probably quite a bit that I’ve missed from the above, but hopefully I’ve made a good start on explaining the project (renders below should help!). Any comments / suggestions / observations would be greatly appreciated!

 

Thanks,

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by JulianB

[JulianB]

 

 

 

In an attempt to get the ball rolling, a few questions / discussion points:

1.     What is the likely level of air tightness / general thermal efficiency I can hope to achieve given the traditional construction methods on part of the house… I have had a very deep trawl through the forum and can’t seem to find a great deal of examples on what people generally do (apart from flatten them!). Is a box within a box our only viable option? Would this create issues relating to condensation & damp in the cavity between the two?

2.     MVHR: I’ve read that below a certain air tightness level, it becomes relatively pointless to install an MVHR…the answer to question 1 will hopefully feed into this point, however I was also keen to use the MVHR to manage the moisture content in the house if I were to go down the route of traditional permeable materials in the old part of the house, which would require good ventilation. As previously mentioned, it would be nice to have a log burner in the old house, which could be fed by an external air source. If this still poses as a considerable issue in terms of delivering as good a thermally performing old house, then we may re-think. With regards to MVHR brands, I have seen that costs generally go up quite considerably once you start looking into units which incorporate heat pumps etc Currently I can’t see us wanting to heat the rooms via the MVHR as opposed to the ASHP / boiler, as I presume the COP is quite a bit lower? I’ve looked at a few systems such as the SystemAir and Vent Axia which don’t appear too expensive and which I occasionally see crop up on eBay second hand which could prove useful…any others that might be worth keeping an eye out for?

3.     ASHP: As discussed, I would really like to invest in an alternative means of energy as opposed to my current oil fired boiler…The whole house can quite happily be UFH, which should tie in nicely with an ASHP (unsure on size at this stage). My main concern is the DHW…whilst I appreciate that each ASHP has a unique COP trend with demand temperature, I seem to recall anything over 35degC as being pretty detrimental. If so, that means that I would need to top up my DHW using an alternative source. Solar power to an immersion heater is something I have seen, however I’m concerned that this installation may blow the budget, and unsure on what the conservation officer would approve. Failing the solar panel option, would that leave me with remaining on oil to provide the additional heat required to get DHW up to the 40s, or potentially look into GSHP again if this could satisfy both requirements at a sensible COP which would make the additional costs worthwhile?

 

Some general info I forgot to mention in my first post:

·         Floor area of entire house + proposed extension - 130m^2

·         The rear of the house faces West/South West

·         Deepest excavation point to FFL should not be more than 1.5m from the current lay of the land – we’re hoping the subterranean aspect might yield a degree of thermal efficiency benefit, together with the back of the house being considerably glazed, which we’re hoping we would make the most of by keeping the UFH circulating during the day in order to distribute that solar heat gain to the shadier areas of the house (i.e. old part!)

[Ferdinand]

5 minutes ago, JulianB said:

have had a very deep trawl through the forum

 

Congratulations on not vanishing without trace for some time like Dr Livingstone.

 

I’ll try and come back on some of this later.

[Mr Punter]

You mentioned Passivhaus.  EnerPHit is aimed more at existing buildings. https://europhit.eu/ There was someone over a greenbuildingforum (shevek?) who did this on a terrace house.

 

If you are insulating the walls internally you could have the insulation directly against the wall.  If is rigid boards you could secure them with battens which would also form a service void.  Do not introduce a cavity between the wall and the insulation.  The inner face of the insulation should be as vapour impermeable as practicable, so tape the joins and use a decent VCL.  The permeable materials are best introduced on the cold side of the insulation, so repointing externally should be lime etc.

 

Join the wall insulation to the ground floor insulation.

 

Regarding air permeability you could aim to achieve 5 m³ / (h.m²) and MVHR will be fine with this.

 

Forget the log burner and the open fireplaces.

 

Regarding build method for the extension, perhaps get a price for blockwork and ICF.  See how they compare in cost, wall thickness, ease to finish etc.  Most builders are familiar with blockwork.  I would not suggest timber frame against an existing stone building.

[JulianB]

3 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

You mentioned Passivhaus.  EnerPHit is aimed more at existing buildings. https://europhit.eu/ There was someone over a greenbuildingforum (shevek?) who did this on a terrace house.

 

If you are insulating the walls internally you could have the insulation directly against the wall.  If is rigid boards you could secure them with battens which would also form a service void.  Do not introduce a cavity between the wall and the insulation.  The inner face of the insulation should be as vapour impermeable as practicable, so tape the joins and use a decent VCL.  The permeable materials are best introduced on the cold side of the insulation, so repointing externally should be lime etc.

 

Join the wall insulation to the ground floor insulation.

 

Regarding air permeability you could aim to achieve 5 m³ / (h.m²) and MVHR will be fine with this.

 

Forget the log burner and the open fireplaces.

 

Regarding build method for the extension, perhaps get a price for blockwork and ICF.  See how they compare in cost, wall thickness, ease to finish etc.  Most builders are familiar with blockwork.  I would not suggest timber frame against an existing stone building.

Replies…success!

 

Thanks for your comments…I had actually ‘googled’ EnerPHit previously as came across it in one of the BuildIt magazines. Will definitely have a trawl through greenbuildingforum for Shevek tonight!

 

With regards to wall insulation, I’m not entirely sure I understand your suggestion. My understanding was that if you do place an impermeable insulation/material up against the inside of the walls, moisture would build up on this impermeable face and manifest itself as damp? By using something more like reed, sheep’s wool, hemp+lime plaster etc, you are managing the moisture in the walls by effectively allowing it to travel inside the building and dealing with it through adequate ventilation?

 

With respect to the external pointing, we’re on the same page here…the house is currently pointed in cement mortar (DOH!), and is on my to-do list (still undecided between NHL or hot lime mortar).

 

I will try to let the wife down slowly re. the log burner, I might need to counter it with an upgrade to another part of the house (bigger en-suite? Hehe).

 

Agreed – I’m thinking if we go down the conventional blockwork route, we could probably get away with ‘blockwork – cavity (filled) – blockwork’ as the outer blockwork skin would then be part rendered and part clad in natural Hornton stone. I’ve only just started researching foundations, and haven’t had any input from a SE as of yet…passive raft slab comes to mind as an interesting one to investigate, but I will need to do a lot more research to understand the associated costs and complexities involved with each approach. I’m wondering if a soil survey would probably be a good place to start…

[Mr Punter]

There are differing opinions on insulating old solid wall buildings.  If the walls are damp it is worth trying to find out how the damp is getting in.

 

Originally the solid wall would be ventilated to the inside and out. The inside air would be slightly warmer and have lots of ventilation / drafts from chimneys and ill fitting windows.  This may have allowed the wall to remain fairly dry but the cold and drafts make it uncomfortable to live in.

 

I would not want to use organic material against a damp wall and would choose Celotex / Kingspan type with a VCL on the warm side.

 

I have used silane / siloxane cream on the outside of a solid brick wall and it is claimed that this prevents rainwater saturation while still allowing evaporation, helping the wall to dry.

[JulianB]

11 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

There are differing opinions on insulating old solid wall buildings.  If the walls are damp it is worth trying to find out how the damp is getting in.

 

Originally the solid wall would be ventilated to the inside and out. The inside air would be slightly warmer and have lots of ventilation / drafts from chimneys and ill fitting windows.  This may have allowed the wall to remain fairly dry but the cold and drafts make it uncomfortable to live in.

 

I would not want to use organic material against a damp wall and would choose Celotex / Kingspan type with a VCL on the warm side.

 

I have used silane / siloxane cream on the outside of a solid brick wall and it is claimed that this prevents rainwater saturation while still allowing evaporation, helping the wall to dry.

 

 

Thanks for explanation (& apologies if my knowledge is limited/flawed in places!). With regards to the walls getting damp, I thought this was an unavoidable situation due to the solid walls being sat directly onto earth without any form of DPC management, together with the unrendered external wall finish being pearmeable by nature and hence absorbing a degree of moisture during the wetter periods, which would gently pentrate through? 

 

 

[Cpd]

 

On 04/10/2019 at 10:53, JulianB said:

Improve front door performance (all timber) – currently very drafty! Thinking the frame might need to be replaced to provide an adequate sealing area – wondering if any modifications can be made to the door itself to help matters (granted that we have no chance of replacing it…)

 

The door is an easy fix in my opinion (if it opens internally) as I have done a number of my own doors.

The quickest way is to attach an external lining round the door reveal. 

This is what I do.

 

1. Get some 20-22mm thick timber, treated if possible or treat it yourself. It can be as wide as you like depending on how it looks in the frame. You can router a nice curved edge or cut a 30-40 degree angle on it to make it look better.
2. Assuming that the door is relatively flat.... (check by putting a full length of flat timber up against it) you can then router the slot for the weather seal, remember to re treat the slot with wood preservative before putting the seal in.
3. Once you have assembled  / put the weather strip in your two sides and top you can do a dry run and place them in the frame to make sure they are all going to fit snugly. 
4. Pre drill holes for your ss screws and  them put up your top piece first with the door shut. You need to apply a a bit of pressure to get the weather strip to compress and make sure there is an even gap between the door face and your timber insert. Screw it into place.  
5. Repeat this process for both sides. 
6. The bottom of the door is more tricky but a quick way to make at least some improvement is to fit a brush seal on the bottom of the door on the inside.
7. A quick way to improve the thermal efficiency is to stick 25mm of rigid insulation to the inside face of the door and then stick some thin ply over this to protect it. You can faff around and make it as nice as you like but again if your looking to get a quick fix until a new door / frame can be fitted then this will make a huge difference.... I know as I have done this to a few doors and then checked with an Infer red temperature device to see the results. 

I have done these  improvements and they are great if your starting from a totally crap draughty door...... 

 

This is the cheep and quick way of sealing the external doors with a minimum of one seal. I have just build 3 doors and frames from scratch and made sure that my design incorporated 2 seals all the way round. 

 

If you have the money then obviously ripping the whole lot out and replacing with of the shelf quality external doors and frames would be the way to go.... just not an option for me. 

 

I can provide more information on seals, equipment and some photos if you decide to go down this road, but I’m flat out doing my accounting at the moment so this is just a quick overview of one option to get you through the winter!  

 

 

 

[JulianB]

Thanks for the info; all makes perfect sense. I don't suppose you've got some photos of the seal profiles etc (no rush!)

 

Thanks

 

Julian

[Cpd]

https://www.ironmongerydirect.co.uk/product/schlegel-aq21-(ql3009)-aquamac-seal-25-metres-brown-518990#

 

will post some photos later

 

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by Cpd

[scottishjohn]

I will have similar project only larger and intend to get to close to passiv 

the basic suggestions put to me all revolve round same things

mine is a large house so will be easier in some ways

 that is make a another house inside the old one 

my 2 favorite suggestions so far to deal with the possible moisture problems from outer walls are 

 

 remove everything till bare stone wall --clean well and then spray closed foam insulation -approx 35- 50mm thickness --this will be totally water proof so any moisture will go out through the lime mortar on outside .

now you could build you Timber frame inside and then spray once the frame is up bonding it all together --then insulation of your choice to fill in .

 the other way is similar 

clean internal side of stone work --cement render to seal any holes ,then apply brush on tanking  system -- both end up with totally water proof layer 

If i ts brick work you could probably just paint that with tanking system 

then again build what ever you like inside TF or thermo block .

lay your vapour barrier on your prepared sub floor after a good layer of insulation  --fit UFH  and then pour slab--

 i have no doubt original ventilated wall space behind the lathe +plaster went right into the roof space ,but you now would have vents going out under the roof at top of walls,should not be much draft but need something just in case

 so now you deal with roof separately  if you intend to make it living space .

you are basically making a sealed box 

  the walls you either seal them or you have to have an air gap and a draft up them to allow stone to dry out

 that is the way you make your old house into new close to passiv type house,

which is why every company i have talked to tell me to pull it down and start from scratch  as it will be cheaper and easier --no unforseen bobby traps --something i doubt you would be allowed to do   . even if you make it same appearance on outside

 the other problem will be loss of floor space with the 140-170mm  walls  of  new house inside old one- you could maybe get  down  a bit  . what ever you do to get air tightness you will need to dump lathe +plaster walls and get back to stone work  and start your airtight box from there

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by scottishjohn

[SteamyTea]

I would forget PV, seems you are surrounded by trees.

As for ASHP, that is just a sizing issue.  Work out your current heat load, that will give you an idea what will be needed in future.

I don't understand why you want a limecrete floor.  Better to dig out what you have, lay some proper insulation, then a concrete floor with under floor heating.  At least you will know that the floor will set hard.

Regarding an wood burner, why, they are inefficient, very polluting and hard work.

[JulianB]

17 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I would forget PV, seems you are surrounded by trees.

As for ASHP, that is just a sizing issue.  Work out your current heat load, that will give you an idea what will be needed in future.

I don't understand why you want a limecrete floor.  Better to dig out what you have, lay some proper insulation, then a concrete floor with under floor heating.  At least you will know that the floor will set hard.

Regarding an wood burner, why, they are inefficient, very polluting and hard work.

 

Thanks for the comments...that's actually a good point re. trees....I find in the mornings we are generally shielded by the trees to the front of the house but by midday we get a some direct sunlight. 

 

Limecrete would only be incorporated into the old part of the house - my fear is that going for a concrete floor would divert more moisture to the base of the solid stone walls?

 

I am letting my wife down slowly re. the wood burner - there is something cosy about lighting a wood burner on the weekend, but that could equally be because we are used to colder houses and hence welcome the blast of heat they offer...if we do hit a better thermal efficiency and maintain a more comfortable temperature throughout the day, we may find that a wood burner would only over heat ourselves!

 

 

[scottishjohn]

look at any of the real passiv house builder  guys and they will all tell you that PV is the last thing --even if it was suitable in your postion 

fabric of the house first --reduce energy requirements is primary goal --pv  etc are the frills 

[SteamyTea]

6 hours ago, JulianB said:

my fear is that going for a concrete floor would divert more moisture to the base of the solid stone walls?

Renovate it properly and any dampness should be a thing of the past.

[scottishjohn]

thats why when you doing a floor your plastic membrane  goes under the insulation and up to the walls so it cannot transfer moisture from walls to floor slab

Edited October 12, 2019 by scottishjohn

[Ed Davies]

I'd think that if there's water vapour rising up through the soil below the house then a vapour-open floor will let some of it out reducing the overall vapour pressure under the house and therefore the likely amount of water which would go into the walls. I don't know how much difference that'd make in practice, and it's probably very site and house dependent,  but I can understand being wary of retrofitting a relatively vapour-tight floor in a house which didn't originally have that.

[scottishjohn]

hence why if you doing total refit you could tank the walls as well-- like a cellar and french drain  outside the walls -- if really worried

 all these things are why, if allowed its easier and cheaper to flattten  and start again,even if you have to make it look the same exterior wise

Edited October 12, 2019 by scottishjohn

[Ed Davies]

Tanking the walls wouldn't help. A French drain outside likely would depending on the circumstances.

 

I'm thinking of the house in Tongue I rented which had significant damp problems downstairs which I think was at least partly due to it having had a concrete floor put in. The water table was always pretty close to the surface (and sometimes above it) and I strongly suspected that the concrete floor made it worse by not allowing water vapour out.

[Ferdinand]

You need to consider your chimneys carefully.

 

The blocked off ones will be uninsulated spaces exposed to outside, depending on how you choose to block them.

 

Summary copied form here:
http://www.greenbuilding.co.uk/GBF_Forum/discussion/comment/213675/#Comment_213675
 

Quote

 

Ok, I just wanted to put together a little summary for anyone who comes across this post as it might be quite useful.

So here goes:

 

HEAT LOSS FROM A DISUSED CHIMNEY:

In the past when chimneys were used with fires, the stack effect would create draw, which naturally caused warm flue gases to flow up the chimney and out the chimney pots. Well now the same thing is happening as the whole height of the flue is heated from the ambient heat of the house which travels up and out the chimney pots due to the stack effect.
If you ever get the chance on a cold, still day, stand by a flue pot and you can easily feel the warm air rising from it - it's quite considerable.
Also, if you cover a fireplace with a thin piece of cardboard or metal, you will hear and see it flex as the wind blows across the chimney pot, clearly showing how easily air moves up and down the flue.


MINIMUM INSULATION:

Put a ventilated rain cowl/cap on the chimney pots.
Now plug the bottom of the flue with a chimney balloon or similar
This will prevent most heat loss through the flue. Note an airbrick/vent is not needed at the bottom of internal chimney.


RECOMMENDED INSULATION:

For most of the remaining ¼ of energy (note: there would still be heat loss via the fabric of the chimney itself cold bridging), EPS beads, vermiculite, LECA, perlite or similar poured in through the airbrick in the attic helps reduce thermal thermal losses up the chimney flue and is easy to remove (note if a flue is still in use, polybeads may melt, whilst LECA is thermally more resistant).
Unless you keep the fire place open, the insulation sits on the fire slab if it gets bricked up. If you keep the fireplace open then a reasonable register plate keeps it all "up there".
Take loft insulation 400mm up chimney breast from ceiling below (50mm below airbrick), and bring insulation beads inside flue up to same level.


A NOTE ON SEALING OFF THE CHIMNEY WITHOUT VENTILATION:

If you just cap off the top and insulate the bottom, “pumping” will happen. This is when in an closed off chimney the top gets very cold, condensation occurs and the cold air falls down the chimney, warm moist air rises, this dries the chimney breasts and indeed the house but dumps water in the form of condensation in the top of the chimney, saturating it until it can take no more at which point it starts dripping, running down the flue. This is like a cold tropical rain forest and not good. Adding loose insulation fill however, will not affect pumping.



A NOTE ON AIRBRICKS:

Chimneys can act like dehumidifiers with or without air movement condensation id drawn to the coldest points, the pot and the flaunching and can rain or run down the flue. An air vent does not stop this but it stops it being so bad and then once the sun comes out and warms the loft (most days) the whole thing drys out with warmed dry air flowing up the flue. This isn’t covered in literature, but in reality happens a lot if not well ventilated)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2019 by Ferdinand

[PeterW]

4 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Ventilate the top part of the chimney e.g. in a cold attic 450mm up from the ceiling below it. Remove a brick or two and replace with an airbrick or aluminium louvre.

That has got to be the most dangerous piece of advice I have seen on sorting chimneys ..!!!

 

Next person comes along, removes the cap and the balloon (both temporary...) and then gets It swept and a stove connected and it leaks smoke into the attic..??!! 
 

If you decommission a chimney, do it properly and and safely. 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

That has got to be the most dangerous piece of advice I have seen on sorting chimneys ..!!!

 

Next person comes along, removes the cap and the balloon (both temporary...) and then gets It swept and a stove connected and it leaks smoke into the attic..??!! 
 

If you decommission a chimney, do it properly and and safely. 

 

 

 

Interesting. GBF and no one called it.

 

Inthink it assumed that the next person would have  checked. should I edit?

 

[PeterW]

GBF in 2014..... knowing what we do about the moderation policy on there, it probably did get queried but the owner didn’t like it .... 

[Mr Punter]

I thought it was commonplace to fit a stainless liner when installing a stove and to fill around with vermiculite.

[Ferdinand]

2 hours ago, PeterW said:

GBF in 2014..... knowing what we do about the moderation policy on there, it probably did get queried but the owner didn’t like it .... 

 

Edited.