Issues with softwood windows and doors.

[Jenni]

Hello. 

I have softwood windows and doors that were supplied by my builder (he commissioned them from a local joiner). 

I painted the outsides before they were fitted, but not the insides. 

 

The problem is the windows are leaking and doors dropping on their hinges (and leaking a bit).  

 

My builder is coming back for snagging soon but has mentioned that as not painted on the inside, can't expect the wood not to have twisted. I may be wrong about his intentions, but sounds a bit like the 'blame' (and therefore cost to fix) will be laid at my feet. 

 

We have softwood windows in current house that haven't been painted in decades (never were, are still bare wood) but no leaking on those, ever. 

The bit of window that is leaking isn't the opening sash, but a lower fixed/dummy sash that was screwed into the frame before the glass was fitted. 

 

Can a lack of internal paint cause doors to drop on their hinges? (1 door just scuffing bottom so it's stiff. The other so bad it virtually won't shut now) 

 

Some pics attached. 

 

[oranjeboom]

I suspect he may have also blamed you for the issues had you NOT painted it! What type of softwood is it? Always amazing how much it can 'move' after fitting. I've tried to acclimitise all timber in my house before fitting and will have to lay some door frames flat again with weights because they have shifted so much. Timber can be re-shaped to an extent and even doors can be taken out and re-shaped with a bit of effort, but a bit more tricky with glazed ones.

 

Pic 1 - Is that a door? After rain? Even if that door had warped a bit, I don't think it should have that kind of water infiltration coming through. Did the joiner fit any rubber seals around the door?

 

Pic 3 - Did you have them fitted after the concrete floor/screed was poured? Would have been a lot of humidity at that point, but if the same builder was doing the concrete who should have realised and mentioned something about leaving the doors/windows open!

 

If you painted them on the outside, and your builder then fitted them, he should have then mentioned to you that it would be best to paint them on the inside sooner than later. A bit late to be pointing that out to you now!

[Onoff]

Take the picture below, a door I assume:

 

 

By painting the outside you have in effect sealed the surface so as to limit moisture in/out. The unfinished side, inside will now dry out quicker and contract. 

 

Some truth in what your builder is saying I think unfortunately.

[Jenni]

@oranjeboom

I don't know what type of softwood it is. 

 

Yes pic 1 is a door, I have 2 doors like this that weap water when it rains 'at them', there are rubber seals on the frames on 3 sides, and what seems to be a hard plastic nib on the step for the door to close onto at the bottom. 

 

The windows arrived in January, I painted them in a different building (heated enough to match requirements of the paint). They were fitted to the barn in March. Pics taken after heavy rain in August. Concrete was poured 9th September. 

 

@Onoff

Yes that's the front door. 

Thanks for your explanation, I should've got on with sealing the insides, hindsight eh. 

 

But would that drying out effect cause doors to drop on their hinges? 

 

The part of the windows that's leaking is secured with screws into the frame, the sashes aren't leaking, I would've thought that the effects of twisting/warping would have been greater on a sash than a fixed panel? But this doesn't appear to be the case. 

 

Not sure how to upload a short video that shows how to windows are leaking. 

[nod]

Unfortunately no one will guarantee timber against swinging or moving Especially softwood  

The timber simply isn’t seasoned anymore 

The frames on your old house that are decades old will have been made with seasoned timber 

Id see what your builder can do to rectify the problem 

[Jenni]

See if this works, video upload, sorry not for great filming. 

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, Jenni said:

See if this works, video upload, sorry not for great filming. 

 

Video works alright. Can't see much as to why the leaks. The frame joint in the top left appears to have been nicely done for example suggesting an attention to detail elsewhere. Maybe some views of seals, rubbers at the openings. 

 

I am right these are all custom made but in softwood?

 

Wouldn't timber effect upvc have been cheaper?

Edited September 29, 2019 by Onoff

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, Jenni said:

But would that drying out effect cause doors to drop on their hinges?

 

See the bigger gap at the top on the left. I'm assuming the bottom of the door, lock side is catching?

 

I'd also say the door joints at the bottom are coming apart slightly. Big, heavy double glazed panel? 

 

[Jenni]

@nod

Yes I suspect lack of seasoning is the ultimate issue here. Is it not common practice for softwood to be seasoned anymore? Especially for joinery. Rather disappointing. 

 

@Onoff

Yes custom made in softwood. Upvc wasn't an option. 

But I'm now resigned to making do with these wooden ones now, and saving up so in a few years (hmm, maybe 5-10) when I can afford it, replacing with Ali or aluclad. 

[Jenni]

1 minute ago, Onoff said:

 

See the bigger gap at the top on the left. I'm assuming the bottom of the door, lock side is catching?

 

I'd also say the door joints at the bottom are coming apart slightly. Big, heavy double glazed panel? 

Yes, exactly that. 

Would painting inside have prevented that from happening? 

[Onoff]

1 minute ago, Jenni said:

Is it not common practice for softwood to be seasoned anymore?

 

Timber now tends to be from species selected for their fast growth properties. 

 

What timber was used do you know, a kiln dried redwood maybe?

[Jenni]

I don't know what timber it is, I might be able to find out next week. 

[Onoff]

I'd hazard that's a failure of the door construction / glue used.

 

However...if the inside has dried out so quick that its shrunk in all planes, guessing you could see this.

 

Others will hopefully comment shortly.

 

Do you know of anybody else who's had doors etc made by these people and have had issues?

 

I'm v.suprised this was cheaper than upvc. Was no upvc your choice or a condition?

[ProDave]

Re the doors dropping.

 

That is probably also partly due to wrong fitting of that big glazed panel.

 

We had a similar issue with a UPVC French door once.  When the window company came back to fit it, they blamed the original installer for fitting the glass unit wrong.  You need to pack and wedge the glass in a certain way so that all the weight is taken on the bottom corner at the hinge side and then packers at the top to stop it falling over if that makes sense. then it won't be putting much if any weight on the outer edge of the door.

 

I suspect in your case that was not done and the weight of glass is causing the door to drop.

 

Are those metal straps on the door a retro fit to try and address the problem?  I would not be happy with those.

[Onoff]

9 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Re the doors dropping.

 

That is probably also partly due to wrong fitting of that big glazed panel.

 

We had a similar issue with a UPVC French door once.  When the window company came back to fit it, they blamed the original installer for fitting the glass unit wrong.  You need to pack and wedge the glass in a certain way so that all the weight is taken on the bottom corner at the hinge side and then packers at the top to stop it falling over if that makes sense. then it won't be putting much if any weight on the outer edge of the door.

 

I suspect in your case that was not done and the weight of glass is causing the door to drop.

 

Are those metal straps on the door a retro fit to try and address the problem?  I would not be happy with those.

 

Toeing and heeling they call it.

[Onoff]

Some info here expanding on what @ProDave mentioned:

 

https://www.alextradeframes.com/technical/toe-heel

[Onoff]

14 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Are those metal straps on the door a retro fit to try and address the problem? 

 

I think they're some form of low profile security slide bolt?

[Onoff]

Taking a step back here, could it be primarily as Dave said the DG pans simply weren't installed properly? 

 

Don't suppose you can see the packs?

[PeterW]

Toe and heel on a uPVC door is a very different thing to one in a timber frame. I wouldn’t have a panel that big in an ordinary timber door - engineered possibly but that is sadly asking for trouble. 

 

The DG unit in there probably weighs 30kg all up, there is no way a glued joint will hold that, and the reason the joint has gone is down to the weight of the unit pushing on the bottom corner. 

 

Was it pre-glazed before installation ..??

[oranjeboom]

In that video, the water appears to be percolating THROUGH the wood and bubbling up - is that the case? Even if you have only painted the door on the exterior, I don't think that should be happening!! Is there a gasket between the glass and the wood on the exterior side at all? If not, then the water may simply be dripping down the glass and between the wood and glass at the bottom!

 

[nod]

1 hour ago, Jenni said:

@nod

Yes I suspect lack of seasoning is the ultimate issue here. Is it not common practice for softwood to be seasoned anymore? Especially for joinery. Rather disappointing. 

 

@Onoff

Yes custom made in softwood. Upvc wasn't an option. 

But I'm now resigned to making do with these wooden ones now, and saving up so in a few years (hmm, maybe 5-10) when I can afford it, replacing with Ali or aluclad. 

No most timber isn’t seasoned now 

certainly not softwood for window frames

 

we have sash throughout 

My friend has a workshop and makes Harwood frames But advises against timber as he has similar problems to what you are having  

He simply tells customers It’s a natural product and will move  

[Oz07]

Wonder if the doors have 2 tennons. Don't like to see flush bolts on face of door can compromise joint. I'd be trying to reglaze and and resquare packing as you would a upvc door to keep square

[Temp]

On 28/09/2019 at 22:18, Jenni said:

Can a lack of internal paint cause doors to drop on their hinges? (1 door just scuffing bottom so it's stiff. The other so bad it virtually won't shut now) 

 

If there wasn't much clearance it doesn't take much movement to bind up. Should be easy to fix. 

 

Did you paint the top and bottom of the door (eg the end grain)? If not then no wonder the wood has moved.

[Temp]

In the video there is water coming in the top of the door. That's somewhat unusual as normally the roof overhang or gutters shelter the very top of the door to some extent. Part of the problem is that the door opens outwards so the seal probably mates against the inside of the door or wipes against the top of the door. On inward opening doors the seal can mate against the outer face of the door.

 

Check for any gap between door and seal at tge top and fix that by raising the door if its sagged a bit. In addition I recommend fitting a weather bar with drip groove above the door to divert any rain outboard and to shelter the gap at the top of the door. This should be the width of the opening in the wall eg wider than the door.

 

Edit to add this sketch of what I think is happening..

 

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Temp

[Jenni]

On 29/09/2019 at 09:16, Onoff said:

Do you know of anybody else who's had doors etc made by these people and have had issues?

 

I'm v.suprised this was cheaper than upvc. Was no upvc your choice or a condition?

 

My builder has said he won't be using that joiner again, he's apparently lost a lot of money trying to rectify issues in other builds as well.

 

Our 'permission' was via permitted development, our architect specified wooden windows, we were under the impression that's just what we had to have. TBH we probably wouldnt have gone with uPVC anyway, personal thing. But I would have investigated Ali' / Aluclad if I thought it was allowed. Live and learn / next time.

 

On 29/09/2019 at 09:25, ProDave said:

Re the doors dropping.

 

That is probably also partly due to wrong fitting of that big glazed panel.

 

We had a similar issue with a UPVC French door once.  When the window company came back to fit it, they blamed the original installer for fitting the glass unit wrong.  You need to pack and wedge the glass in a certain way so that all the weight is taken on the bottom corner at the hinge side and then packers at the top to stop it falling over if that makes sense. then it won't be putting much if any weight on the outer edge of the door.

 

I suspect in your case that was not done and the weight of glass is causing the door to drop.

 

Are those metal straps on the door a retro fit to try and address the problem?  I would not be happy with those.

 

I'm told the doors/glazing was fitted with 'toeing and heeling' method.

 

The metal straps are slide bolts,  I was advised to have them to stop twisting, I specified those flush ones but wasnt advised they'd cause any issues.

 

On 29/09/2019 at 10:02, PeterW said:

Was it pre-glazed before installation ..??

 

Hmm, I don't know for sure, but I think after installation.

 

On 29/09/2019 at 10:17, oranjeboom said:

In that video, the water appears to be percolating THROUGH the wood and bubbling up - is that the case? Even if you have only painted the door on the exterior, I don't think that should be happening!! Is there a gasket between the glass and the wood on the exterior side at all? If not, then the water may simply be dripping down the glass and between the wood and glass at the bottom!

 

The video is of a window (sorry I should have been clearer) I think the water is coming in here - 

 

On 29/09/2019 at 10:31, nod said:

No most timber isn’t seasoned now 

certainly not softwood for window frames

 

we have sash throughout 

My friend has a workshop and makes Harwood frames But advises against timber as he has similar problems to what you are having  

He simply tells customers It’s a natural product and will move  

 

Ok, now I know more, thank you.

Yes, will be saving up for aluminium replacements, one day it will get better, until then these will have to be good enough.

 

22 hours ago, Temp said:

 

If there wasn't much clearance it doesn't take much movement to bind up. Should be easy to fix. 

 

Did you paint the top and bottom of the door (eg the end grain)? If not then no wonder the wood has moved.

 

The 2 outward opening doors were painted on top/bottom/sides (just not the inside face). of those 2, 1 has dropped/jams, the other is ok. 

 

21 hours ago, Temp said:

Check for any gap between door and seal at tge top and fix that by raising the door if its sagged a bit. In addition I recommend fitting a weather bar with drip groove above the door to divert any rain outboard and to shelter the gap at the top of the door. This should be the width of the opening in the wall eg wider than the door.

 

Edit to add this sketch of what I think is happening..

 

Thank you for the diagram, looks like a good idea.