New member, building at Graven Hill

[Ferdinand]

51 minutes ago, pocster said:

I would of gone underground for an extra floor - but what would I know ?

 

In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit....

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[ProDave]

44 minutes ago, DarrenA said:

I think they've priced the plots as high as they can get away with. If you build really carefully you might end up with a small amount of equity but no one is going to make a fortune building at Graven Hill. As a guide line, a 5 bed "executive" detached new build in Bicester by a mainstream developer is around £500k. Hopefully a stylish, unique self build will be worth more. ?

I wasn't meaning to offend.  It is more my disappointment that the plots are so expensive, and come with so many restrictions.

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[DarrenA]

This is my first build admittedly but I'd like to think of myself as a hands on builder. I'd say half the self builders on site are in the same category.

We were drawn here by the instant community mainly. I think a lot of people like the relaxed planning rules. There are 9 houses on our street and 4 are being built by architects for themselves. There are restrictions on the GIA, build height and location of the house on the plot (none too onerous and all available on the plot passport prior to buying) but not rules on design. If we want to finish ours in pink corrugated cladding we can. Rumour has it someone has designed a castle. On our road the 9 houses are similar sized but all extremely different. 

Hopefully the project is a success and if so should be widely rolled out. I disagree with the Golden Brick policy of prebuilding the foundations as it is very expensive and doesn't save much time or trouble. But I love the fact that plots are sold with services on site immediately and the Plot Passport planning system. Our planning cost nothing (included in the plot price) and was approved first time 2 weeks after application. 

[SteamyTea]

@DarrenA

Do you know if anyone has started but abandoned their project yet?

[Ferdinand]

2 hours ago, DarrenA said:

There are 9 houses on our street and 4 are being built by architects for themselves.

 

That is interesting. And is a recommendation like me waiting for Doctors to be having laser surgery and there being no specs at Conferences for Opticians before I will consider laser, type I Diabetes and my sod of a prescription. Notwithstanding.

 

Architects are always more creative when the customer is assertive enough to give them some but not too many constraints, or buys a right bugger of a plot that is an intellectual challenge.

 

I think the Golden Brick is effectively a way of handling the VAT exemption , whilst giving the site provider some more cash. I do not think anywhere has a standard and simple way of handling the self-build exemption on a larger pre-provided plot yet. I keep asking Councils how they would handle S106 for a large site subdivided for self-builds later, and no one has a real clue yet that I have asked - it is all btsoyp.

 

I am not aware that anyone has ever run  cost-benefit from the point of view of the customer at Gravenhill.

 

I can see that the houseprices being London cummutable will be OK in a decade for builders now, provided all the tickboxes are ticked.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Ferdinand

[DarrenA]

 

The purchase contract enforces a build time of no more than 2 years and I'm not aware of any one going over that yet. But effectively the site has only been running for 2 years so that might change. 

The Grand Designs houses were started much earlier under different contracts. I would say (by walking past) that 3 of the 10 aren't completed or lived in. These are probably 4 or 5 years old now so that does look like a problem. 

On the main site though I don't think there are any abandons yet.

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[Ed Davies]

Have I missed something? What's this “golden brick” thing about? Is it just to lock in the planning permission before the sale is finalised or something more useful?

[Jeremy Harris]

4 minutes ago, Ed Davies said:

Have I missed something? What's this “golden brick” thing about? Is it just to lock in the planning permission before the sale is finalised or something more useful?

 

It's a rather complex and expensive way of getting around a VAT problem, that involves selling plots complete with the foundation, ground works,services etc all in place.  It's the main reason that the plots are a bit expensive for what they are, as the foundation costs are pretty high for what is a fairly benign site.

[Ferdinand]

43 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

 

I didn't mean to imply anything, I think the market for serviced plots with easy routes through planning and utilities etc takes a huge amount of risk (and worry) out of the process, so it attracts a different type of self builder. I'm guessing the architects are on board because of the easy planning, you can really experiment when you don't have to deal with the unimaginative local authority planner!!

 

The golden brick approach is interesting, as @Ferdinand says it's still all a bit suck it and see, at least on a scale like this there are opportunities for both the buyers and sellers to test out new ways of doing things

 

One aspect which is totally unclear as yet is how the providers of the plots manage risk and long term risk, of which they will get a lot more than before due to the extra upfront investment, and deal with the peculiar decisions of local authorities. Some people view plots as bottomless pits of tax money waiting to be harvested, others view LAs as bottomless pits of bureaucrat costs. That is not resolved. And in reality it is really really difficult.

 

One of the interesting things about Gravenhill is how long it has all taken. Kevin McLoud’s street of 10 houses took iirc 6 years from first mooting. And Gravenhill was set up by the Planning Authority ... imagine a developer trying to do the same with hordes of yammering NIMBYs everywhere demanding that they are suddenly interested in the welfare of foxes..

 

Or look at something as allegedly simple as Build to Let. Legal and General have everything they have built so far targeting the top 10-20% of the market at rents about 1/3 above the General market afaik. And it is taking years longer than the initial commitment.

 

The first lot of plots at Penkhull, Stoke the LA ended up spent 450k on getting them ready, then made 590k from the sale, with potentially 200k to come depending on a further road being built. Sales prices were higher than expected. Is it built yet ... project started in 2013.

https://selfbuildportal.org.uk/case-studies/stoke-serviced-plots/

 

It is .. like everything ... about money and risk and matching the two. We do not have more than half the jigsaw imo.

 

But then increasing self build to say 50k a year from 15-20k was always going to take a generation.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Ed Davies]

6 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

It's a rather complex and expensive way of getting around a VAT problem, …

 

Because they have to charge VAT on the plot but can zero rate if it's locked in as a self-build residential?

Edited August 22, 2019 by Ed Davies

[Jeremy Harris]

1 minute ago, Ed Davies said:

 

Because they have to charge VAT on the plot but can zero rate if it's locked in as a self-build residential?

 

I believe so, yes.  By doing enough work to be able to lock in the planning consent they can zero rate the sale.  Unfortunately, they just pass on the cost of the foundations, services etc, with little attempt to do this work for the best price.  For example, the foundation work quoted above is roughly three times the cost of our foundations and service connections, for a foundation area that's only about 10% larger and the soil conditions at Graven Hill aren't particularly challenging.

[Ferdinand]

8 minutes ago, Ed Davies said:

 

Because they have to charge VAT on the plot but can zero rate if it's locked in as a self-build residential?

 

Yes, but I think because the deal on VAT recovery is better if it is all encapsulated with a single supplier.

 

See post 782 (or the appropriate number ?) on the VAT thread.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Ferdinand

[ProDave]

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

 

It's a rather complex and expensive way of getting around a VAT problem, that involves selling plots complete with the foundation, ground works,services etc all in place.  It's the main reason that the plots are a bit expensive for what they are, as the foundation costs are pretty high for what is a fairly benign site.

It always stuck me as an odd expensive solution to paying a bit of VAT on the services connection for instance.  I would love to see a true costing to see how much extra fees you end up paying compared to how much VAT you save doing it this way.

[Jeremy Harris]

6 minutes ago, ProDave said:

It always stuck me as an odd expensive solution to paying a bit of VAT on the services connection for instance.  I would love to see a true costing to see how much extra fees you end up paying compared to how much VAT you save doing it this way.

 

I suspect the VAT saving has ended up well and truly down in the noise, given that the costs that seems to get added on to the Golden Brick package are so high.  Back at the start, Graven Hill seemed to get themselves wrapped around the axle when thinking of ways around the VAT issue, and almost certainly anded up incurring much higher costs because of this, which have then been passed on to buyers.  It took them something like two years to work out how to sell plots, and that delay must have added a fair bit of cost.

 

Time will tell as to whether the houses will end up with a value that's equal to the build cost.  I would guess that it may well take some years for house prices to rise to that point.  Having said that, I don't think that Graven Hill is about getting a good value house, really, it seems to be mainly about getting a custom house that isn't like others nearby.  I guess there is some value in that to the builders, even if it doesn't add much in terms of market value.

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[Jeremy Harris]

Just now, the_r_sole said:

 

Do you (or anyone else in here) know roughly how much of a premium these plots are going for over a similar sized serviced plot in around the same area?

 

I guess your assumption (highlighted in bold) is kind of the reason that a lot of people get into self build? do something better than the rubbish you can buy from volume builders and get the house that suits your lifestyle...

 

 

Hard to know, as there are very few self-build plots around in that general area.  However, we're in an area with roughly similar house prices, and self-build plots are between 1/2 and 2/3rds the price, but often have fairly tight planning constraints on the design.  For example, the planners wanted our house to be built from (very expensive) Chilmark stone, and I had to fight a battle to get timber cladding accepted.  They wouldn't have accepted a rendered or brick exterior.

[newhome]

5 hours ago, DarrenA said:

The Grand Designs houses were started much earlier under different contracts. I would say (by walking past) that 3 of the 10 aren't completed or lived in. These are probably 4 or 5 years old now so that does look like a problem. 

 

Having watched the TV show what houses are still unfinished? Are they still being worked on or  have they stalled completely? 

[DarrenA]

6 hours ago, JSHarris said:

For example, the foundation work quoted above is roughly three times the cost of our foundations and service connections, for a foundation area that's only about 10% larger and the soil conditions at Graven Hill aren't particularly challenging.

That's my take too. The soil is pure clay and most sites are gently sloping. All have excellent access. Ours was trench fill with beam and block. Admittedly, our foundation costs included optional extras like underground ducting and drainage (manholes, connection to mains, etc), leveling the area around the slab for a gravel mat, hardcore for the mat and driveway and an awkwardly large pile of topsoil (way more than we expected). But we are still looking at £40k+ for a fairly simple 11m x 9m slab. 

[DarrenA]

2 hours ago, newhome said:

 

Having watched the TV show what houses are still unfinished? Are they still being worked on or  have they stalled completely? 

 

The Aston Martin man/luxury Moscow woman house is definitely unfinished and empty. One of the later episodes with the lift and lady in a wheelchair (very nice house I thought) might be empty. This is based on the fact that the level entrance isn't done so surely they can't be there. I can't remember the other one and maybe I'm mistaken. I'll check next time I go for a walk. 

[Russell griffiths]

On 21/08/2019 at 08:17, ProDave said:

Ouch. You have paid £275K for the plot and foundations. That is more than my entire build including land.

 

While I love the principle of Graven Hill, I think they are taking the p**s with the plot prices.  That is going to be a £500K cost house at least by the time you have built it. 

I do agree that plot prices are crazy, but you need to compare apples with apples, that plot by me would be £100 grand more, and in Surrey could well be double that. 

Its really down to if you like it and can afford it. 

[ProDave]

This is why I think plot prices are too high at Graven Hill

 

I give you this, a ready to move into contemporary 3 bedroom house for £413K at......... Graven hill https://www.rightmove.co.uk/new-homes-for-sale/property-84118883.html

 

Okay, @DarrenA house is bigger and better spec, but it's is likely to cost £75K more plus all the work of building it.

 

[DarrenA]

23 minutes ago, ProDave said:

This is why I think plot prices are too high at Graven Hill

 

I give you this, a ready to move into contemporary 3 bedroom house for £413K at......... Graven hill https://www.rightmove.co.uk/new-homes-for-sale/property-84118883.html

 

Okay, @DarrenA house is bigger and better spec, but it's is likely to cost £75K more plus all the work of building it.

 

Actually these are very pretty houses and a decent spec. They might be passive houses iirc. 

But our one is bigger plot, better location and significantly larger. If they get £413k, it gives me confidence that ours will be in the £550k region. I'm not touchy about this, believe me we've been through the same thought process. It's going to be a lot of work for minimal equity but I do expect to end up in credit. 

Someone very sensible is pricing the plots. They are right on the limit and if a plot is slightly larger, it costs more. Bigger GIA, better view, quieter street, more desirable location on the site - they all cost appropriately more. There are no bargains ?