NON FIT solar PV export payments.

[ProDave]

Details of the replacement scheme for paying for exported power from solar PV have been announced.

 

https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/beis_unveils_smart_export_guarantee_to_replace_export_tariff

 

Headlines:

 

Must be an MCS install to qualify.

 

You must have a smart meter installed to measure actual export not deemed export.

 

Export rate is set by your "supplier"

 

 

My comments:

 

I am so far self using 95% of my generation.  I have only exported 48KWh so far this year.  At a typical export payment rate of 5.5p per KWh I would have received an export payment so far of £2.64   Given how much I would have had to pay for an MCS install, that extra cost would NEVER be repaid by the small export payment, compared to the savings I achieved by self installing.

 

I personally think it is wrong to still insist on an MCS install as the only way of making it "safe"  That is an insult to most electricians who are perfectly capable of a safe install without the overhead of the MCS scheme.  And in any event as a few of us have proved recently, there is no problem registering a solar PV system with your DNO without any MCS paperwork.  So it is nothing to do with being "safe" but continuing to feed the gravy train.

 

[scottishjohn]

so how long to get a draw with cost of panels verus savings on buying energy ?

 which is the only thing that really matters

energy prices will keep rising as sure as the sun comes up ,so how many years before you start to see the benefit of the investment

 

Edited June 7, 2019 by scottishjohn

[ProDave]

1 minute ago, scottishjohn said:

so how long to get a draw with cost of panels verus savings on buying energy ?

 which is the only thing that really matters

I am estimating payback in 6 years for my bargain basement DIY ebay sourced install.

[scottishjohn]

my build project i am looking at has enough space for as much Pv as i can afford to buy , 

but the export price is what will swing it  ,until that alone can get a payback in that sort of time scale its still not a viable  really .

 

I am guessing your calculation is on the assumption that you will continue to use 90%of your production ,

so unless you can use that amount then its really  still a "tree hugger " thing

 

I suppose one could say if you used all this pv to heat a thermal store for UFH etc then your COP would be around 2.5-3.0  in real terms

so the question is  ,when do we forget heat pumps and just use Pv to heat and store water?

 

and then costs of a large storage system  will be the problem 

which brings it full circle to solar thermal --and that is where that falls down --cost of  large enough storage

I know I am simplifying some things --but thats the basic outline  as i see it

 

[K78]

Do people fit PV because they want to be as green as possible?

 

I can’t see the benefit financially now the FIT scheme has gone. Tbh I’m not even considering them. 

[JamieG]

Hello, this is my first post but have been reading for a while. We are just completing on our plot purchase in Scotland and are looking to use solar pv instead of a normal roof on a passive house.

 

I find it really sad that people base there decisions purely on economics. If economics area all we base our decisions on then there will no planet left and the point where we won't be able to stop that being the case is pretty much now. The decisions you are making now about how to heat and power your home have a direct impact on whether or not we will have a planet to live on. The Government can't do it alone.

[newhome]

29 minutes ago, JamieG said:

I find it really sad that people base there decisions purely on economics.

 

I don’t think it’s purely economics in the main but if we’re talking about pretty hefty 4 figure sums not everyone has that sort of money spare. If more people could fit them a bit more cheaply it would encourage people to fit them more. Our installer network hasn’t caught up with the demand for renewables either unfortunately. I haven’t been able to get someone to come out and fix my solar thermal system for love nor money so all of my heating is electric which is neither green nor cost effective. 

[K78]

39 minutes ago, JamieG said:

Hello, this is my first post but have been reading for a while. We are just completing on our plot purchase in Scotland and are looking to use solar pv instead of a normal roof on a passive house.

 

I find it really sad that people base there decisions purely on economics. If economics area all we base our decisions on then there will no planet left and the point where we won't be able to stop that being the case is pretty much now. The decisions you are making now about how to heat and power your home have a direct impact on whether or not we will have a planet to live on. The Government can't do it alone.

 

I haven’t got money to waste on PV panels. I live in NW England. Its a pointless expense. 

 

I fail too see how PV in northern England or Scotland will help the planet. USA, China and India pump so much shit into the atmosphere home PV in a grey climate won’t help. 

 

I drive a 4WD truck and I want a Alfa quadrifoglio. I’m not the most green minded person I admit. 

 

Banning plastic  bottles and bags would be the best thing we could do in terms of helping the planet with immediate effect. Better than any green tax the government cook up to hit us with. 

Edited June 7, 2019 by K78

[ProDave]

For me it is partly wanting lower energy bills (electricity to power "stuff" like washing machines etc is at least double the electricity used to heat the house. It is partly about wanting to be a bit greener. And lastly about maximising SAP value. I am aiming for an EPC A, I would not get above B without any renewable generation.

 

But with all that, with no FIT is is only viable if you can install it very cheap.  

 

I try very hard to shift electricity usage to the middle of the day by using the washing machine, tumble dryer and dishwasher in the middle of the day (only 1 machine at a time) and diverting excess power to the immersion heater.  

[scottishjohn]

7 minutes ago, K78 said:

I find it really sad that people base there decisions purely on economics. If economics area all we base our decisions on then there will no planet left and the point where we won't be able to stop that being the case is pretty much now. The decisions you are making now about how to heat and power your home have a direct impact on whether or not we will have a planet to live on. The Government can't do it alone.

when governments do their bit

I will do mine 

and they can start with air travel and the pollution that causes and follow that up by stopping all coal fired power stations world wide

what i can do  to make any difference is--sod all.

making it viable for us to help is what is needed and as long as we get taxed the way we are we need all the help we can get 

how about a tax credit for all green improvements?.

thats a very low cost to them 

the same as registered charities get if you make a donation ?

you give them£10 --they get tax credit form government for same amount

Edited June 7, 2019 by scottishjohn

[ProDave]

45 minutes ago, JamieG said:

Hello, this is my first post but have been reading for a while. We are just completing on our plot purchase in Scotland and are looking to use solar pv instead of a normal roof on a passive house.

 

I find it really sad that people base there decisions purely on economics. If economics area all we base our decisions on then there will no planet left and the point where we won't be able to stop that being the case is pretty much now. The decisions you are making now about how to heat and power your home have a direct impact on whether or not we will have a planet to live on. The Government can't do it alone.

I find it very sad, that there is no incentive to install solar PV any more.  How does the government expect the average home owner to install renewable energy if it is going to cost them thousands that will never be recovered in saved energy costs?

 

What I think should be happening if there is no subsidy any more, is encouraging cheap DIY installs and paying a fair rate for exported power. But we have this stupid new scheme that demands you must pay for an MCS installer in order to claim the small export payment.  That is NOT going to encourage many people to install micro generation.

 

Actually while solar PV can be useful to a home owner, I think solar PV would be a much better prospect to install on the roof of every business premises.  They are much better placed to easily use daytime generation and so for it to be viable without subsidy.

[Tony C]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

 

 

 

I am so far self using 95% of my generation.  I have only exported 48KWh so far this year.  At a typical export payment rate of 5.5p per KWh I would have received an export payment so far of £2.64   Given how much I would have had to pay for an MCS install, that extra cost would NEVER be repaid by the small export payment, compared to the savings I achieved by self installing. 

  

 

I will be installing PV for our house and thinking to do DIY and installing Megaflo Eco PV ready.

What is your set up to be able to use 95% of the generation? How many kW PV system?

 

 

[ProDave]

5 minutes ago, Tony C said:

 

I will be installing PV for our house and thinking to do DIY and installing Megaflo Eco PV ready.

What is your set up to be able to use 95% of the generation? How many kW PV system?

 

 

4KW PV, arranged as an E/W split (to try and maximise generation time at the expense of lower total generation)

 

Air source heat pump for heating and hot water.  Timed to not turn on until 10AM when there should be reasonable PV generation.  Excess power dumped to the immersion heater (home made dump controller) And a regime of trying to use the big appliances around mid day rather than in the evenings.

 

The ASHP heats the HW tank to 48 degrees at 10AM and there is enough capacity still to absorb plenty of surplus On a good day the tank will be up to 68 degrees by the afternoon.  The only time there is significant export is at mid day if nothing else is on when generation exceeds what the immersion heater can use.

[joth]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

Details of the replacement scheme for paying for exported power from solar PV have been announced.

 

 https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/beis_unveils_smart_export_guarantee_to_replace_export_tariff

 

 Headlines:

 

Must be an MCS install to qualify.

 

 

"a series of minimum safety standards [..] will be required, with BEIS holding the MCS registered installer process as one particular example."

 

That doesn't sound like they're entirely intending to set up MCS as a monopoly on this, although I agree calling it out has the high risk of having that effect. Seems very challengeable though:  the minimum standards must be documented, and  it should be  possible to demonstrate they are met via other means.  If nothing else the onus surely has to be on NICEIC , Elecsa etc to join the game and provide accreditation schemes - I mean NICEIC already do gas certification, so why not solar PV?

 

But really, and I guess this is exactly what your're say -- it has to meet part P standards anyway, and if it's safe enough to be legal to connect to the DNO at all, why does it need any extra certificate to prove safe enough to receive remuneration for it.

 

And then like any other part P work retrospective certification  (potentially after remedial work) seems totally plausible too.

 

Hmmm.

 

[ProDave]

From Octopus Energy

 

Quote

For new installations (that is, after the FiT closure date of 1/4/2019) we’ll still require a copy of your Microgeneration Certificate Scheme (MCS) certification in order to get you onto the tariff.

[Jeremy Harris]

24 minutes ago, joth said:

 

"a series of minimum safety standards [..] will be required, with BEIS holding the MCS registered installer process as one particular example."

 

That doesn't sound like they're entirely intending to set up MCS as a monopoly on this, although I agree calling it out has the high risk of having that effect. Seems very challengeable though:  the minimum standards must be documented, and  it should be  possible to demonstrate they are met via other means.  If nothing else the onus surely has to be on NICEIC , Elecsa etc to join the game and provide accreditation schemes - I mean NICEIC already do gas certification, so why not solar PV?

 

But really, and I guess this is exactly what your're say -- it has to meet part P standards anyway, and if it's safe enough to be legal to connect to the DNO at all, why does it need any extra certificate to prove safe enough to receive remuneration for it.

 

And then like any other part P work retrospective certification  (potentially after remedial work) seems totally plausible too.

 

Hmmm.

 

 

One snag is that Part P doesn't exist in Scotland, so neither do any of the scams like NICEIC, Elecsa etc.  NICEIC, Elecsa etc don't give a stuff about safety, or compliance with regulations, they exist as money making enterprises that collectively support a closed shop that is wholly intended to stitch up specific areas of business and restrict competition.  If you don't believe this then trying making a complaint for non-compliant workmanship to one of these scammers and see where it gets you. 

[joth]

Right, the problem right now is MCS is the only game in town. The solution is either deregulate it completely (zero certification schemes), or get 2 or more so there's at least some chance of competition. I just can't see the former ever happening...

I'm no particular fan of NICEIC or whatever, but there's a heck of a lot of vans carrying their logo, if everyone of those sparkies could certify a system for feed in (Inc retrospectively certify) that'd surely go a long way to removing the current profiteering.

Sorry if that's  England-only thinking though

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The problem I have with NICEIC, Elecsa etc is that they are far more interested in ensuring they extract the maximum amount of money from those registered with them, and also in preventing qualified people from being able to undertake work that falls under the Part P notification requirement if they believe that doing so might take work away from other members.  For example, all of the accreditation bodies now refuse to allow retired, well-qualified, electricians from being able to undertake any Part P work.  They also refuse to allow people like me, who used to teach apprentice electricians at college, to do Part P notifiable work.  The flip side is that they will allow any monkey that's done a very short course to pay their fees and join, leading to there being some really crap "electricians" around who may seem OK because they have a snazzy logo.  There are a few electricians that have YouTube channels who have illustrated some of the really rubbish work that some of these supposedly competent people have done.  I have first hand experience of employing one of these bloody dangerous monkeys to do our initial site wiring; what he left behind was potentially lethal, yet he'd ticked the Part P boxes.

 

The other thing is that Part P only covers the connection of the inverter to the supply, nothing else.  The critical parts of the PV installation, like the mounting of the panels, wiring of the DC side, installation of the inverter etc aren't covered.  MCS covers the whole lot, so what's really needed is something to compete with MCS, or that allows any competent person to demonstrate compliance with whatever set of regulations needed, in some other way.

[scottishjohn]

I agree with most of what has been said 

but I think the real reason MCS came about was the government misguided belief that it would stop a cowboy industry starting up like double glazing was in the beginning.

where they would be paying   to support  and encourage its take up 

so having a requirement for approved fitting network to industry standards -makes nice clean break of responsibility  and supposedly gives MCS system some control over standards of fitting as it encompasses not only electrical work but total fitment of systems

Its not just PV but all micro generating systems that could attract grants

hydro ,solar thermal ,wind,biomass ,ashp ,gshp etc

technically there is nothing stopping you doing it and just paying for a completion check by MCS approved engineer who will make out the paperwork 

It  would interested how much of a premium they really charge over what a normal plumber or sparkie  would do

-NOT diy where you are only paying for equipment-that is an unfair comparison .

thats like someone complaining i want to charge them £800+vat  for fitting a clutch to a 4x4 ,where I  have to remove engine to do it

and telling their friends the bits are only £150--"what a rip off" -- and they spend 3 or 4  days doing it as a diy job.

 no the bottom line is that the pricing of systems and no FIT will control the up take due to pay back period --not really the MCS costs

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

MCS covers the whole lot, so what's really needed is something to compete with MCS, or that allows any competent person to demonstrate compliance with whatever set of regulations needed, in some other way.

That is it really.

I am no fan of regulations, but they are needed.  We can't have a free for all when it comes to installing micro-renewables, the local grid was just not designed to handle it.

As an example, when I worked for a PV company, we installed 4 systems in the same street.  That attracted the attention of the DNO, who warned us that we may be liable for a transformer upgrade.  The odd thing is that if 4 different companies had installed the same system, then the DNO was liable for the upgrade.

It is also not, as Jeremy points out, just to do with the electrical safety.  There is mechanical safety as well.  None of us want PV modules falling off roofs in a storm, or a leaky roof for that matter.

There is also a certain need to protect ordinary customers.  We tend to be out of the ordinary on here, and some if us are capable and qualified to do an install.  But my neighbours aren't, so I don't want them thinking they can jump about on the roof, with a drill, fitting a PV system.

Edited June 8, 2019 by SteamyTea

[SteamyTea]

As for the economic arguments, they tend to be way off the mark as people seem to look only at the cash side of it.

There are 3 pillars to environmental economics, financial, environmental and social.  It is impossible to get they all to balance.

Once that is accepted, game theory can be used to get the least worse option.  This casts a very large net across the planet.

Most people accept that burning coal to generate electricity is not a good thing, and with current technology, probably unnecessary now.

But I don't want to be the person, or government, that denies Sub-Sahara Africans an improvement in life because the Developed Nations have nicked all the resources.

Climate change, environmental pollution and poverty are a global problem so we have to be equitable about it.

It seems odd that we are now, in the UK, trying to use as much of our self generation as possible and whinge that we are not getting paid much for exports.

Globally we would be better off paying to install a system in a country that has less restrictions, as it is cheaper to do so, and all the generation would be used all the time.

But that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

 

Edited June 8, 2019 by SteamyTea

[scottishjohn]

MCS covers the whole lot, so what's really needed is something to compete with MCS, or that allows any competent person to demonstrate compliance with whatever set of regulations needed, in some other way.

 

I do not see how another body will make it any cheaper ?that is purely down to supply +demand 

my plumber who fitted ASHP was happy to get the work ,even after me asking lots of questions on how he was going to tackle the job,

so i don't think he added much at all to price ,as i got  attempted to get quotes from 6 different companies to replace my gas boiler with an ASHP 

3 said they would come ,but don,t think they liked me saying ,don,t just send a salesman ,but one can actually answer engineering questions about the job  --so 3 never came of the day appointed day to quote 

3 did -and  one I discounted  after a 10min conversation --he failed the exam .LOL

and  eventually picked the slightly more expensive one after his interview 

 

i already had UFH --so it was just a a heat source change

 

[ProDave]

31 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

I agree with most of what has been said 

but I think the real reason MCS came about was the government misguided belief that it would stop a cowboy industry starting up like double glazing was in the beginning.

 

But isn't that what we ended up with? A scheme that seems to fleece you by charging over inflated install costs.  Just look at some of the MCS quotes people have posted on this forum. then look at the actual amount of labour, cost that at a fair rate, and you get the "MCS premium" we often talk about.

 

ALL that is needed for the electrical side is an EIC to demonstrate the install has been designes, connected and tested in accordance with wiring regulations.  Why do those up high think it has to be any more complicated than that?  It if really was an issue of "safety" the DNO would not allow connection until an MCS certificate was issued. Hell, they don't even ask for an EIC, they just want to know the size of the system and the details of the inverter used so they have confirmation it is an approved type.

 

Oh and the bad news, an equivalent to part P is on it's way to Scotland. I just hope I can retire before I get burdened with unwanted extra paperwork and expense with no benefit to the customer.

 

If you look in England, most prosecution for unregistered electricians is for using the logo of of a scheme they are not a member of. Very few for actual bad or unsafe work.

[scottishjohn]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

As for the economic arguments, they tend to be way off the mark as people seem to look only at the cash side of it.

There are 3 pillars to environmental economics, financial, environmental and social.  It is impossible to get they all to balance.

Once that is accepted, game theory can be used to get the least worse option.  This casts a very large net across the planet.

Most people accept that burning coal to generate electricity is not a good thing, and with current technology, probably unnecessary now.

But I don't want to be the person, or government, that denies Sub-Sahara Africans an improvement in life because the Developed Nations have nicked all the resources.

Climate change, environmental pollution and poverty are a global problem so we have to be equitable about it.

It seems odd that we are now, in the UK, trying to use as much of out self generation as possible and whinge that we are not getting paid much for exports.

Globally we would be better off paying to install a system in a country that has less restrictions, as it is cheaper to do so, and all the generation would be used all the time.

But that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

 

sub-sahara --will be using PV ,wind or solar thermal ( to drive steam turbines) any way  --not coal  

 

its china +polland +germany that are main culprits there --all developed countries and in temperate climates ,which is why wind in uk is best option --other than hydro ,which very few  governmenst wants to make long term investment in dams .

plenty of big rivers in europe they could use.

no reason why the thames barrier could not also be be tidal generation as well--short term thinking again 

[scottishjohn]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

But isn't that what we ended up with? A scheme that seems to fleece you by charging over inflated install costs.  Just look at some of the MCS quotes people have posted on this forum. then look at the actual amount of labour, cost that at a fair rate, and you get the "MCS premium" we often talk about.

 

ALL that is needed for the electrical side is an EIC to demonstrate the install has been designes, connected and tested in accordance with wiring regulations.  Why do those up high think it has to be any more complicated than that.  It if really was an issue of "safety" the DNO would not allow connection until an MCS certificate was issued. Hell, they don't even ask for an EIC, they just want to know the size of the system and the details of the inverter used so they have confirmation it is an approved type.

 

Oh and the bad news, and equivalent to part P is on it's way to Scotland. I just hope I can retire before I get burdened with unwanted extra paperwork and expense with no benefit to the customer.

 

If you look in England, most prosecution for unregistered electricians is for using the logo of of a scheme they are not a member of. Very few for actual bad or unsafe work.

My answer  to you is if you think it is such a gold mine --then start up yourself and under cut the others and make money by being booked up in advance  a year in front 

thats how biz works