Roger440

Just as well most of france doesnt have anything like the heating requirement we do.

If you use actual, real, recovered railway sleepers, you will likely get a good life from them. They are usually a decent hardwood, properly treated. The "sleepers" that everyone now sells new are not railway sleepers (unless we have started building a lot of minature railways). They are just a large piece of low grade timber, treated fot only the first couple of mm. Ive seen plenty of old railway sleepers in farms as material bays etc. 50 years on the farm, 100 years before that in the ground and still ok. Sadly though, they are not cheap, and often look quite rough. Wouldnt even entertain "new" sleeps as a solution to anything. For retaining walls, i just use the concrete block interlocking walls. Indeed, ill be starting on in April.

Its happening because it is what they want. I found that looking at what they do, rather than what they say works well. Saying and doing rarely match. Ive said it before, as you know, but electricity prices are only going one way. Simply because they cant come down based on actions or lack thereof.

It can only end one way. Bankruptcy. Its surely only a case of when, rather than if. Though they are very good at kicking the can down the road. And then of course, under IMF control, the government will be forced to make the necessary cuts. And, of course sell off government assests at knockdown prices. To them.

Indeed. Can only blame myself for that. I did, however, think it was a nailed on certainty that the scheme would continue in ever more generous form. But, occasionally, sensible things happen.

To return to the original topic, looks like Rachael has indeed binned the ECO4 scheme if indeed the news is reporting correctly. They just call it an ECO scheme so not 100% sure. Good news for the taxpayer. Bad news for me.

I'm talking about the sealer rather the grouted you would use on paving.

You can always use the resin based sealer after laying. That binds the sand and creates an impervious joint that weeds can't grow in. Very effective.

Can't say I know. It was a while ago. Don't think there's any real practical difference. Just kingspan is about 20% more expensive. Because it's a market leading name.

I've used it, albeit in Workshop rather than houses. But I'd use it on a house if appearance was OK in that environment. In terms of fitting, I can't think of any roofing that is easier. It is as simple as it gets. One component. No layers, no gaps, no membranes. The thicker it is, the less noise. But a thelin panel can be noisy in the rain. But no more noisy than my new fibre cement roof tiles are. I'm at a loss as to why it's not used more, accepting that visually it often doesn't suit.

I already have radiators. Which are fine. But I do like UFH. Was fantastic in our last place, which I installed, though that did have foamed glass insulation under the slab. The original slab had to come up anyway on that house though. I'll take my chances. Mainly because i dont believe 85% of the heat will go down. And, of course, currently im already losing heat down through the slab as its already in my room! It's certainly not an uncommon thing to do. I can easily rent the machine to cut the grooves.

I'm not convinced, though that's based on the fact, that, practically, this would be done on an existing slab, so the pipes wont be buried as has been used in the examples above. They will be lying in slots cut into the surface, and depending on the proposed floor covering, left like that or grouted in. I'll leave it others to ask ai, but the real world solution I suggest will, logically alter the ratio of what heat goes where. Interesting though, as this is exactly what I will be doing. Much as having insulation under the slab would be great. I'm not ripping up six inches of perfectly good concrete to do so. £5-7k (even doing it myself) buys a lot if energy in whatever form. Never mind the disruption, and ridks if undermining shallow foundations. There's also some benefits in a traditional house with no dpm of gently warming the base of the walls and driving the moisture out.

Johnmo makes some excellent points which are, essentially as I understand it. On a new build it wouldn't make any sense, but on an existing house, makes more financial sense than digging up a perfectly good floor. I know, I ran the numbers. I’d be long dead before break even.

Not sure finance is an answer for people with no money or an inability to manage money. That doesnt normally end well. I forget the number of people that dont even have £200 in savings, but its substantial. They live month to month. They dont have any capital, and borrowing money in that circumstance would be foolish. Wasnt really debating if all those people needed to be in that postion. Just observing that they are, be it through circumstance or the choices they make. Related, though not directly is the very long payback periods on some of this stuff. If you can see a return in 2 or 3 years, if you have the capital its a no brainer. But 10 years, not so much. Might make good sense on paper, but 10 years is a long time, lots could happen. Could even be dead. But a half resonable you chance that you may not benefit as you might die, move house or whatever.

I dont think they are short sighted. The vast majority of the population simply cant afford to drop a 5 figure sum on heating, an EV etc, no matter how good it looks finanicially over the long term If electricity was free for heat pump use, thay still cant fund the heat pump in the first place. Running costs are acedemic if you dont have the capital. You have demonstrated, once again, that BH members are not representative of society at large.

So what has the debate over the last few pages been about? Why all the chat about WC and having to re-visit, tweak etc. Thats been discussed on here numerous times before.

Having a heat pump is a disadvantage. Primarily because of cost, secondly, finding someone who can do it properly, and, to a much lesser degree, reliance on the grid being available, which for most is a non issue, but a small issue for me. Given, as per my ramblings elsewhere, i end up with a bigger generator, that problem goes away. The eco4 scheme, assuming i qualified, would fund the HP, solar and insulationl at no cost to me at all. Im sure you can appreciate, that fundamentally changes things. If that option does not come to fruition, then yes, i revert to my previous position of sticking with oil. As, financially its the only option that makes any sense at all. Seems fairly simple to me. Im not sure ive ever deviated from that.

Id suggest the sceanrio you outline in your last post is where we end up. Because, sooner or later, given that the "third parties" seem incapable of making stuff work properly, one of the Boiler and or HP manufacturers offer a complete system that does everything from a control perspective. To be honest, i find it perverse that nobody does (to the best of my knowledge). A car manufacturer doesnt build a car, and then leave the steering wheel and pedals out for a third party to fit. And with good reason. If they did, some people would screw it up and say the car was crap. Which just damages the brand, or even the concept of a car. So just like heat pumps. Where everyone says they are crap, but, the pump itself is just fine. Its the people fitting and, more relevant here, the control systems are not up to it from a consumer aspect.

Sadly, as you often do, you like to acscribe a position to me which i dont take. I was looking at a heat pump under the eco4 scheme as part of a whole house upgrade, whilst being very cautions of the fact its mostly done badly by grant harvesters. But i think ive found a "good one". Sadly for me, but of huge benefit to the taxpayer, it looks like the scheme will be canned by Rachael. So more than happy to have a heat pump, done properly. Why wouldnt i? But, if i have to pay for it all from my own pockets, its the economics of the madhouse. Whilst im not in poverty, im also not a position to fritter away 5 figure sums on a whim. Ive got a heating system which is fine, only 6 years old, and is as cheap to run as anything else. Only a heatpump supported by solar (and maybe batteries) could be cheaper to run. But the capital cost simply rules it out. If you ignore capital cost, sure, ill have one tommorow, which is of course where i started this post. So, im not against a heat pump, just not prepared to spend big, to replace a system that does the job perfectly. With a bit of TLC i can probably get another 10-15 years out of it at almost no cost beyond oil. The only slight negative being i cannot fit WC to it. But that doesnt change the financial calculation to any extent.

The perfect world. Lovely. Meanwhile back out in the real world you have the only only body involved essentially mandating over sizing, installers with little technical understanding, heat loss calculations that are entirely theorectical based on "guesses" of the performance of the various elememts of the house, and almost no chance of anyone "coming back" afterwards. The latter is completely unrealistic. This is only going to work when WC sorts itself out. That surely cannot be beyond the wit of man to achieve We can, as you observe, do it manually, so why cant we do it with a bit of software? It never ceases to amaze me how backwards the industry is. Building generally.

Exactly. If its hard to find an installer that understands it, it merely proves that getting the general public to undertand is a lost cause. Imagine how much better things would be if ALL installers actually understood it and set it up properly.

I understand it fully thanks, You statement makes no sense though, you say there no need to understand it, then go onto explain it. I say again, theres no possibility of the average person understanding what you wrote, even if you could persude them to be interested. Which you wont.

The frightening close to being sensible!

You keep going on about its "better" in your never ending crusade. You are wasting you time. My house runs on oil (probably permanently if the eco4 grant goes the way of the dodo) i run it at 20c during the day, 16 at night, and its "on" 24/7, Ive screwed the flow temps down as far as i can. The house is warm and comfortable. My previous house, exactly the same. Whatever this "better" is, frankly i have no need or desire for it to be "better" because it perfectly OK as it is. I certainly dont feel an overwhelming urge from a comfort perpective, to spend a five figure sum and rip my house to pieces to make it "better". Its just not a argument that has any relevance to real life. You make lots of valid points, this isnt one of them. I accept ive probably done more than 99% of people with what i have done, and Prodaves post earlier highlights how bad a lot of systems are. But they dont need to rip it all out and spend £15k (they likely dont have) to make it better.

Gosh, i go away for 2 days and we have another thread, much the same as the previous ones. I think its good for you to occasionally come back to planet earth though. There is absolutely no possibility at all, ever, of getting the average man on the clapham ominibus to understand WC. We live in an era where people think tuning up the thermostat on the heating or an oven to max will heat it up "quicker" You idea is fantasy. And nor should it be necessary. The industry needs to (though i accept it wont) up its game and make stuff that "just works". The automotive industry, until recently anyway, were masters at taking what is, a far more complex product and delivery a usuable one to the consumer. There was a time that owning a car meant you did really need to know the basics of how it works. They took that problem and engineered it out. Succesfully. The should be no need to "understand" WC and if there is, its doomed to fail.