Original Footprint / Loft Connection

[harry_angel]

Hi all, our property is set back in 3 acres in greenbelt and is almost 100m from any neighbouring properties. We are looking to fully convert and expand the loft area, by increasing the size of the 1st floor, which in turn will then "unlock" the loft (at present the loft isn't worth converting, due to lack of useable head height).

 

Our predecessors secured planning for a front extension which we have never liked the idea of and do not wish to activate - this planning went through as part of other planning, which has been actioned, so is secured in perpetuity.

 

So before you factor in the loft there is a +9.333m discrepancy between the planning the previous owners' secured, and building above the kitchen (the part which would then unlock the loft space properly).

 

To my questions:

 

• first we'd need to get the council to agree to the +9.33m increase in "exchange" for the old planning secured
• second....how do we play it with the loft? Do we simply apply for the planning for the space above the kitchen, say the loft is going to be for storage (show windows on the drawings, or not?), then quietly convert it/stick a bathroom etc up there after it's all been signed off? Or just apply straight with the space shown, the windows shown, etc etc

 

The council will struggle with objections about "openness of the green belt" and "disproportionate increases in size" because we are not increasing the dimensions of the footprint, nor the height of the structure. Throw in the 100m gap between us and other properties and that isn't the concern. We can probably even make a solid case that the structure looks bizarre currently, and we are improving it aesthetically.

 

To our layman's eye the main refusal point would be on straight floor area increase: the house has already up to a c. 65% increase.

 

The house currently is 258.55sqm

 

+ First floor extension above the kitchen = 35.55sqm

+ Proposed 2nd floor/loft area = 85.00sqm

258.55 + 35.55 + 85.00 = 379.1sqm (4080 sqft)

 

However the loft has never been included in any floor plans, or footprints, or anything else. It's essentially new, unused, original 1913 space.

 

Any advice on how best to play this very much appreciated!!

 

Planning on putting in a pre app asap. 

 

[Onoff]

Let's hope the council aren't reading this! ?

[ragg987]

Not sure if this helps - when I spoke to our council about planning, the discussion about a basement came up. They told me that this does not have any real bearing on the application as it does not increase footprint or have any impact to bearing, over-sight, blocking light and similar aspects.

 

Where they will be concerned is the safety aspect - creating 3 levels brings in requirements for escape paths and safe areas - enclosed stairways, for instance.

 

Of course the other department that will show an interest is your Council Tax - an increase in floor space and amenity may well mean a change in rateable band(s) or value.

 

That earlier kitchen extension - any way it could be positioned as PD?

[harry_angel]

Thanks Ragg, the previous owner signed away certain (not all) PD rights, in order to get his triumvirate of planning points through (we have actioned 2/3). The final one is the one we're looking to "swap". Like your thinking though, but no idea whether it is credible or not.

 

Interesting that your council didn't care about the basement - because we're not near neighbouring properties I'm assuming the blocking light etc wouldn't be an issue for us, either.

 

I suppose it's always trickier to go up rather than down, however. 

 

I just want to know whether it would even be judicious to refer to the loft in the pre app...part of me thinks just apply for the bedroom above the kitchen and the remodelled roof, which at just a 9.33m sq increase isn't much of a big deal...

 

Very keen to hear other views.

[Onoff]

There's some interesting stuff about increasing loft volume in the permitted development guidance. I was looking as I'd like to convert the hips to gable ends.

[laurenco]

Are you proposing to increase the height of the roof? If not, I can't see any reason they'd fight it.

 

We resubmitted the original planning application 'redistributing' the same floor area in a slightly different way —pulled in here and pushed out a bit there— and the council were fine with it. Note: it was not greenbelt or conservation area. Then, mid-build, we applied for a non-material amendment to add rooflights in our attic and stairs up to the attic, which they passed because, and I quote:

 

'The proposed amendments would not impact adversely upon the design of the proposed development or the residential amenity of the nearby properties. As such, the proposed development would not be unduly prominent in the locality.'

 

That said, I'm uncertain whether they'd permit us to use the attic space for anything other than storage as the plans all show it as a two storey house with storage in the attic.

Edited June 3, 2019 by laurenco

[Temp]

Harry, I would just apply for what you want. They shouldn't be concerned about what you want to put up there, just on the external appearance.

 

They might be worried that you could build both the remaining bit of the existing pp and the new loft conversion, unless the new one physically precludes this. If it doesn't it might be worth heading off that concern at the outset?

[Ferdinand]

I cannot see what going into the existing loft has to do with planning.

 

Unless there is some special circumstance, I would consider applying for the kitchen extension only, and treating the other as a Building Regs Application only afterwards.

 

Why give anyone a potential spanner to put in your works?

 

Ferdinand

Edited June 3, 2019 by Ferdinand

[harry_angel]

Cheers guys. I should have been clearer that we would be expanding the loft space in doing this - you can see the change from the 2 images below. The 2nd image shows the proposed new 2nd floor.

 

Currently the kitchen is single storey as you can see, but by making it 2 storey we also increase the potential size of the loft (because the existing loft will then have a new ceiling to link up to).

 

I mean: it's a big job, we would be totally scrapping the existing pitch roof in favour of a new straight wall line + false pitch roof, semi-concealing a flat roof.

 

So it's almost like we're saying to: "we want to convert what's already there....and add to it...considerably".

 

I think I should probably tread softly softly and just apply as you guys say to add the bedroom above the kitchen and "re-sculpt" the roofline...which genuinely does look like a hodgpodge of random extensions currently.

 

Note: the 2 images obviously show different sides of the house, which I know isn't clear or helpful. But the architect hasn't sent over the corresponding image yet.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by harry_angel

[Ferdinand]

That's a lorra lorra hoovering ?.

[Moonshine]

6 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

That's a lorra lorra hoovering ?.

 

make sure there is allowance in the budget for a fleet of roomba's

[Ferdinand]

18 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

 

make sure there is allowance in the budget for a fleet of roomba's

 

And just wait until you pay for the carpet.

 

F

[Onoff]

Do you refer to the West Wing etc?

[harry_angel]

16 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Do you refer to the West Wing etc?

 

Like where your head's at...is Wayne Manor trademarked? ?

 

Re hoovers...waiting for robots to get better...

[Mr Punter]

If all the extensions to date have been authorised or carried out as full planning applications and were approved without a condition withdrawing permitted development rights you may be able to do the enlargements required under these.

 

If the house is a real dog's breakfast and the location warrants it, you would get VAT back if you demolish and rebuild, perhaps with a couple of modest sized dwellings taking up a reduced footprint compared to the existing (once extended to full PD).

[harry_angel]

19 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

If all the extensions to date have been authorised or carried out as full planning applications and were approved without a condition withdrawing permitted development rights you may be able to do the enlargements required under these.

 

If the house is a real dog's breakfast and the location warrants it, you would get VAT back if you demolish and rebuild, perhaps with a couple of modest sized dwellings taking up a reduced footprint compared to the existing (once extended to full PD).

 

Unfortunately as above, the previous owner signed away certain development rights, so everything has to go via the council now.