Walls- what can be used?

[Declan52]

Possibly but you will then be putting all the insulation in the inside of the building plus you will have to counter batten the walls and use some kind of a membrane to stop insects getting in behind and setting up home.

Even at that it would need to be a block on its flat to give you enough strength to take the roof and floor joists. By going a block on its flat you will use the same amount as a cavity so why not just build it in block with a cavity. And you might have to plaster it to seal it up incase any rain gets through or use another membrane to act as a rain screen. Which all adds up to not keeping it simple. 

Why the need to go for cladding if you have planning passed for a rendered finish???

[zoothorn]

So in order to hold up the roof, it must have 2 courses of block, as a certainty then-?

[PeterW]

40 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

So in order to hold up the roof, it must have 2 courses of block, as a certainty then-?

 

Not just to hold the roof up but to meet all relevant building regulations. 

 

If you want this simple and cheap, you need to get on and start to lock in your planning from expiring, and then get it up as cheap as possible.   

 

 

[zoothorn]

1 minute ago, PeterW said:

 

Not just to hold the roof up but to meet all relevant building regulations. 

 

If you want this simple and cheap, you need to get on and start to lock in your planning from expiring, and then get it up as cheap as possible.   

 

 

 

But my builder gave me a quote a year ago, basically for 'external TF walls, roof, floor between'. It was unclear whether that meant -both- wall courses (or if a TF build needs two I don't know yet) or just the one course.. but anyway no block mentioned > & a roof on. How so?

[zoothorn]

13 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

If you want this simple and cheap, you need to get on and start to lock in your planning from expiring, and then get it up as cheap as possible.   

 

 

 

Apparantly I have 5 years PeterW so no worries (not that I plan a 5 year prep!) its already 1.5 years since granted, but still not probs.

 

Its getting it up as cheaply as possible absolutely, but with the important factor of SOLIDITY needed too.. this is why my care in choosing walls.

 

A n'bor (nice one with digger, we've agreed £25/hr for my footings so that's good) has a TF house recently made. Asking him if he heard it creak & groan with weather.. said yes it did a bit. This concerned me into thinking at least one block course would be sensible, bc as I say I get hammered on this side of the house weather chanells up our valley > whack onto front of this extention. I had just assumed, as it was the more solid of the two courses that block would be the inner one, which supports the roof I think is the general rule.

[Declan52]

If the weather is that bad then block with a cavity is your easiest option.

If you built a single skin wall up to wall plate height on the 2 nd floor it would be a wobbly mess. It wouldn't be much fun putting the roof on constantly waiting on the wall to push out and you hit the ground.

As for your quote he will have priced it up according to what you asked for. What exactly did you ask him to price up.

 

[zoothorn]

I asked for a quote for the walls, floor, roof > for me to come along & line after (I assumed this was fix battens in / c'tex/ pB) & this is what I got quote for. But a quote saying 'external walls...' doesn't tell me how many, whether one course or two (TF construction this was). Whether a TF needs two courses I don't know (nor do I know how the roof ontop of the 1st floor room, could be supported then if you say a block course couldn't support a roof).

Edited May 31, 2019 by zoothorn

[Russell griffiths]

You seam to be getting mixed up between different methods. 

 

You need to look at lots of our pictures on here. 

 

A timberframe house is structural, the timber holds up the floor and the roof and contains the insulation, once the frame is up the roof can go on. On the outside of this you can have whatever you want to meet your planned design, you can put boards on it and render it, you can put blocks around it and render it. A timberframe is the structure you only need one block thick on the outside, it is just a skin to keep the weather off. 

 

A block built house is TWO skins of blocks to form a cavity, insulation in the gap,cavity. Render on the outside. 

[zoothorn]

@Russell griffiths hi there. Yes I think I am too. This is why I was hoping to do a thread & find out different methods, but maybe I'm getting confused between them. Ok thanks for your clarifying further the TF method, but doesn't the wall you outline also need a cavity between it & whatever is "on the outside" in order for 'weather not to bridge gap to inner wall'? I thought the cavity was the one constant compulsory needed by BRegs,  consistant across different wall methods.

[Russell griffiths]

double block cavity wall. 

On a strip foundation 

with a concrete floor on insulation 

[Russell griffiths]

you are right in thinking that all methods have a cavity, but sometimes in timberframe it isn’t so much of a cavity as just a gap, this is to allow air flow between the two skins and allow any moisture that gets between the skins to dry out. 

[zoothorn]

Ok that helps Russell alot. So what are the options, instead of the bricks in 2nd TF construction pic?

[Russell griffiths]

 

[zoothorn]

Right that's the image I was after- many thanks Russell. So I wonder what my builder's quote is up to if he quotes so vaguely for "external walls", & my plans he base the quote off (same as you see on my zoot's ext thread) clearly show a rendered finish? If so then image no.5 must be.

 

For £13k his quote was for 'external walls, floor, roof'. I'm not sure the relevance of 'external': external relative to a separate internal wall/ course.. or external just a word for the 3 walls. His quote not inc groundwork, scaffold, doors/ windows, electrics, possibly not even inside pB too.

 

Is 'for external walls.. £*k' a typical builder quote terminology, for a full wall?

 

 

[Ferdinand]

External wall = between the inside and the outside.

Internal wall = between 2 inside spaces.

[zoothorn]

Ok that's good Ferdinand. Ok with the quote seems pretty good.. I need to know if extra strength can be added to frame, extra brackets? I'm so concerned with a TF structure at this spot. IAccording to builder a block build would be significantly dearer- I just get impression he doesn't want to go that route.

[zoothorn]

Could anyone tell me about a TF build, with block cladding: how much is the outer block course adding strength/ structural chutzpah to the TF core? I see the 'wall ties' ties on various builds, but are these ties to link the two structures purely for alignment purposes.. &/ or also a link in terms of structural rigidity?

[PeterW]

15 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Could anyone tell me about a TF build, with block cladding: how much is the outer block course adding strength/ structural chutzpah to the TF core? I see the 'wall ties' ties on various builds, but are these ties to link the two structures purely for alignment purposes.. &/ or also a link in terms of structural rigidity?

 

None... nothing .... nada...

 

its a skin only. 

[Jeremy Harris]

14 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Could anyone tell me about a TF build, with block cladding: how much is the outer block course adding strength/ structural chutzpah to the TF core? I see the 'wall ties' ties on various builds, but are these ties to link the two structures purely for alignment purposes.. &/ or also a link in terms of structural rigidity?

 

 

The outer block/brick doesn't add anything structural to the TF, the TF takes the loads and the block/brick skin is really just there to keep the rain out.  The ties are needed to keep the block/brick skin together against things like wind loads, as a single skin block/brick wall isn't very good at withstanding side loads and needs to be braced.  As such the ties are critical to maintaining the stiffness of the wall, but they don't take any of the loads imposed by the internal structure.

[Ferdinand]

42 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

structural chutzpah

 

That is a nice phrase.

 

I wonder what I could deem it to mean ? ☺️

"Things that by rights should not be standing up".

[Temp]

Sorry if I've missed it but..

 

What's the construction of the workshop and will the foundations be ok?

[zoothorn]

5 hours ago, JSHarris said:

The outer block/brick doesn't add anything structural to the TF, the TF takes the loads and the block/brick skin is really just there to keep the rain out.  The ties are needed to keep the block/brick skin together against things like wind loads, as a single skin block/brick wall isn't very good at withstanding side loads and needs to be braced.  As such the ties are critical to maintaining the stiffness of the wall, but they don't take any of the loads imposed by the internal structure.

 

hi JSH.. I understand the general ideas in reply to my Q, I wonder still though if a block outer course would add anything in terms of -wind- protection.. that's my main concern (my Q better put perhaps like so).

 

You hinted "..wind loads" wouldn't be as good if a single skin: but wouldn't it matter inherrantly what the skins are made from though? I wonder if block would be the best barrier against the load from wind (especially hitting the end of my extention, sideways on).

 

Are there any benefits to choosing a block cladding over a timber, for my build?

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by zoothorn

[Jeremy Harris]

13 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

hi JSH.. I understand the general ideas in reply to my Q, I wonder still though if a block outer course would add anything in terms of -wind- protection.. that's my main concern (my Q better put perhaps like so).

 

You hinted "..wind loads" wouldn't be as good if a single skin: but wouldn't it matter inherrantly what the skins are made from though? I wonder if block would be the best barrier against the load from wind (especially hitting the end of my extention, sideways on).

 

Are there any benefits to choosing a block cladding over a timber, for my build?

 

 

The problem that slender block or brick walls have is that they don't have a lot of lateral strength, because mortar has very little tensile strength.  This means that slender block or brick walls always need some form of bracing to stiffen them up.  The wall ties do this.  There are other ways to stiffen up slender walls, like adding buttresses, a technique that's often used on single skin garage walls and garden walls.

 

When a single skin block or brick wall is tied to something like another wall (in the case of a cavity wall construction) or a timber frame, or even a steel frame, then it becomes a lot stiffer and better able to withstand side loads.

 

If you choose to use a block or brick skin outside a timber frame then it will have to be tied to the frame at regular intervals with wall ties, in order to ensure it's able to tolerate side loads.  There was a good example in the papers the year before last where wall ties weren't used on a school built (cheaply I suspect) in Scotland (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-38907714 ).  The gable wall fell down in high winds, thankfully without killing anyone. They found 17 schools with shoddy work and inadequate ties.    It's a good illustration of why wall ties are essential, though. 

[zoothorn]

2 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

The problem that..

 

Hi JSH.. all totally understood thanks indeed (my 2 threads have converged in zootspacetime!).

 

So what I'm trying to establish is if an block skin is chosen to clad my TF structure, wall ties etc, how much benefit will I achieve in terms of wind resistance, over wood cladding instead?

 

Apologies if Ive asked this in another way folks. Its a critical Q, both in terms of structure.. & cost to me. I have to weigh up the benefits or not of outer skin options. Sound 'dampening' (let's call it) another factor in the choice I make too.

 

I see an old stone house similar size to mine just down from me, similar 'blank' side as mine.. this side which is pink (a very good pink, tricky to get colour right) & on closer look its a block side: with a very thin render so the mortar joins only visible close up. Any ideas on this render?

[Jeremy Harris]

4 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

 

Hi JSH.. all totally understood thanks indeed (my 2 threads have converged in zootspacetime!).

 

So what I'm trying to establish is if an block skin is chosen to clad my TF structure, wall ties etc, how much benefit will I achieve in terms of wind resistance, over wood cladding instead?

 

Apologies if Ive asked this in another way folks. Its a critical Q, both in terms of structure.. & cost to me. I have to weigh up the benefits or not of outer skin options. Sound 'dampening' (let's call it) another factor in the choice I make too.

 

I see an old stone house similar size to mine just down from me, similar 'blank' side as mine.. this side which is pink (a very good pink, tricky to get colour right) & on closer look its a block side: with a very thin render so the mortar joins only visible close up. Any ideas on this render?

 

 

Won't be any real difference, as the outer skin is just rain cladding really.  Our house is entirely timber clad on a timber frame and it keeps out the weather just fine.