DIY ICF Construction - Bracing

[Conor]

Cost estimates are coming at almost double what we can in reality afford (£1800/m2) so we're considering not using a main contractor. I'm am engineering project manager so taking a few months off to build and manage is a no-brainer. My partner is the primary income earner anyway.

 

Building ICF blocks myself seems like an obvious way to save a few grand. I know a few on here have done it and it seems possible.

 

My question is bracing... Anybody used a timber bracing system for the likes of Nudura, Logix, amvic etc?

 

We will have hundreds of 6*2 and 4*2 timbers form the demolition of the existing house... Seems like a good option?

 

http://www.greenbuildingtalk.com/Forums/tabid/53/afv/topic/aff/4/aft/78488/afpg/1/Default.aspx

 

I'm in Ireland and I've no idea on the cost of bracing hire.  Figure I could make enough braces for a couple hundred quid - just need plyboard, bolts and screws.

ICF_bracing_3.pdf

Edited May 24, 2019 by Conor

[scottishjohn]

google zonts +zuckles 

these are adjustable units that you screw to wood ,you need to be able to adjust your braces to get wall straight and vertical 

then sell on after job ,or you can maybe hire them ,

If you have no bought icf yet --i would ask them for price of hire .

some are more sensible than others.

If you are ireland why are you not using the system made there ?

integraspec 

that must surely be a better idea 

 

or maybe you should look at Isotex or durisol which does not need anything like the same bracing as they are woodcrete blocks you stack 

screwing on ply at corners and round other delicate bits is enough .

If you want to go poly blocks then also look at isodom2000 --has more ready made funny shape sections than nay other system --made in poland

must be 30 dif type of  blocks they make 

overall there must be over 20 different block suplliers in poly type

then the odd one out is VELOX -- also needs very little bracing and if you going to do it your self ,made worth a look ,

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by scottishjohn

[scottishjohn]

I would also comment that your £900 sqm is an unrealistic price if you are including everyting not just the shell and if itis only you building it --no sub contractors

you won,t be done in 9months 

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by scottishjohn

[ToughButterCup]

47 minutes ago, Conor said:

[...]

My question is bracing... Anybody used a timber bracing system for the likes of Nudura, Logix, amvic etc?

[...]

 

Yes, and no.

No for those trade names.

Yes for Durisol.

£300 worth of 3 by 3s, a 100 meters of threaded bar and loads of nuts and washers. 

More detail needed? 

[Conor]

29 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

I would also comment that your £900 sqm is an unrealistic price if you are including everyting not just the shell and if itis only you building it --no sub contractors

you won,t be done in 9months 

 

 

You could well be right, but I'm hoping to get as close to that as possible, at least one advantage of being in NI is that both labour and quarry materials are cheap. We're going to greatly simplify our design shortly as well.

[Conor]

17 minutes ago, AnonymousBosch said:

 

Yes, and no.

No for those trade names.

Yes for Durisol.

£300 worth of 3 by 3s, a 100 meters of threaded bar and loads of nuts and washers. 

More detail needed? 

 

Yep, I've got the gist of what's required and I've a few ideas myself. I'm sure I'll go through a few prototypes!

[Conor]

58 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

 

If you have no bought icf yet --i would ask them for price of hire .

some are more sensible than others.

If you are ireland why are you not using the system made there ?

integraspec 

that must surely be a better idea 

 

Not committed to a supplier yet, first choice is a MC to supply and fit, I'm just trying to establish feasibility of a DIY route in case it's needed.

 

I've spoken directly to two of the Irish ICF manufacturers and neither are prepared to supply directly, have to go through one of their approved installers. I'm waiting for a call back from Integraspec (castle forms) to see what they can provide.

[ToughButterCup]

30 minutes ago, Conor said:

[...] I'm sure I'll go through a few prototypes!

 

Include in that process a clear, practical, policy on how to deal with bursts.

As an undergraduate, I was lucky enough to have been taught by a lecturer who taught and whose research field was  Accident Theory.

In brief: accidents are normal, so prepare for them.

 

By the end of the pouring phase, I had developed a really quick and efficient  burst-mend  process: a type of accident kit if you will. Bits of wood and sheeting of the right size, screws which had an unfailing grip in the Durisol , wood ready cut to size for the most common burst (one block). Shovels ready, two wheel barrows, and a pre-dug pit for the waste concrete, hose ready to sluice the fine bits out of the house.

 

Didn't stop the sickening big-girls-blouse sensations as the pour progressed. It got to the stage where I'd almost have been glad of a burst because I'd have had something to do.  We had 7 in all. 

[Triassic]

I’ve got our foundation done, the frame up, the windows, cladding and external rendering purchased all for £1000/m2. You’ll have to do a lot of the work yourself and negotiate hard to get down to £900/m2. Oh, and I’ve not even started on the inside!

 

Ps. I’ll post a couple of photos later to show you what you get for £1000/m2.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Triassic

[nod]

I’ve come in at around 850 per square mtr 

That’s with spending 18 k on a German kitchen 20 k on sash windows 

It’s taken me over two years every night and a three day weekends 

The price of local labour shouldn’t matter

As you will have to do most things yourself 

[scottishjohn]

1 hour ago, nod said:

I’ve come in at around 850 per square mtr 

That’s with spending 18 k on a German kitchen 20 k on sash windows 

It’s taken me over two years every night and a three day weekends 

The price of local labour shouldn’t matter

As you will have to do most things yourself 

including plot?

[scottishjohn]

Just now, scottishjohn said:

The price of local labour shouldn’t matter

As you will have to do most things yourself 

please note what @nodsays

if you start getting contracts in you have not a hope in hell for doing it for that price-

 if you can i,ll employ them .LOL

 

we are all just preparing you for the realities

we all thought we could do it for next to nothing at the planning stage .

not having a go at you  in any way shape or form 

[Triassic]

2 hours ago, Triassic said:

I’ll post a couple of photos later to show you what you get for £1000/m2.

The front of the house

 

The back of the house

[Triassic]

3 hours ago, Conor said:

Not committed to a supplier yet, first choice is a MC to supply and fit, I'm just trying to establish feasibility of a DIY route in case it's needed.

I used Amvic ICF, as you can DIY their system, me and a pump operator poured 26 m3 of concrete into the basement ICF walls, all done in one pour. Not one leak and we used home made props borrowed of a local builder for beer money.

[Conor]

9 minutes ago, Triassic said:

I used Amvic ICF, as you can DIY their system, me and a pump operator poured 26 m3 of concrete into the basement ICF walls, all done in one pour. Not one leak and we used home made props borrowed of a local builder for beer money.

 

Fancy a trip over to NI later this year? I brew a good IPA...

[nod]

2 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

please note what @nodsays

if you start getting contracts in you have not a hope in hell for doing it for that price-

 if you can i,ll employ them .LOL

 

we are all just preparing you for the realities

we all thought we could do it for next to nothing at the planning stage .

not having a go at you  in any way shape or form 

Nice to hear John

Its so easy to go with the flow and tell newbies it will all be plain sailing 

It isn’t That’s why so few self build

BUT nearly all on here would say that it’s been well worth the effort and sleepless nights

 Get a few quotes The cheapest it’s always the best

A detailed quote is a good sign 

Most good contractors will itemise 

everything

Beware of the sharp intake of breath followed by a quote of around fifteen hundred quid Isssssh 

[scottishjohn]

when i was looking at icf  not one of the suppliers had any problem with supply only ,most actually promised to give on site training and be there for first pour.

just keep looking around at different systems and study all the videos for a few weeks, you will see the differences between  the systems 

the strengths and weaknesses 

have you got a design +plans ? 

planning permission? 

and services all sorted out ?

quote for the foundations ?

insulated slab ? 

strip founds ?

do all that first before getting too wound up in what system 

once you have then then its time to send those plans of to the suppliers an wait for the quotes .

If you want help post your plans on here

and some of the "gurus" will pass constructive comments with suggestions

[Conor]

Back to the off topic ?

 

We spent a few hours last night going through our plans, the cost estimates and quotes we've got so far, took out what we can do without, and factored in cost savings from me doing some of the PM and labour.... £260k construction costs (Inc fees) for our build - 250m² habitable and 40m² unheated area. So roughly £1k /m². We need to get that down lower so I think there will be some further cuts and compromises!

[Declan52]

8 minutes ago, Conor said:

Back to the off topic ?

 

We spent a few hours last night going through our plans, the cost estimates and quotes we've got so far, took out what we can do without, and factored in cost savings from me doing some of the PM and labour.... £260k construction costs (Inc fees) for our build - 250m² habitable and 40m² unheated area. So roughly £1k /m². We need to get that down lower so I think there will be some further cuts and compromises!

Have you got a price from nie and ni water for connecting up their bits???

So is there no ICF companies here in Ireland that will just let you buy the materials and you do all the work, seems a bit strange. Have you contacted any in the rest of the UK to see how they work out cost wise.

250sqm is a good size of a house so obviously you could reduce this to 230-240 sqm and see what impact this has on your room size. Might have no real world impact apart from saving you vital money.

[Conor]

5 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

Have you got a price from nie and ni water for connecting up their bits???

So is there no ICF companies here in Ireland that will just let you buy the materials and you do all the work, seems a bit strange. Have you contacted any in the rest of the UK to see how they work out cost wise.

250sqm is a good size of a house so obviously you could reduce this to 230-240 sqm and see what impact this has on your room size. Might have no real world impact apart from saving you vital money.

Free. Existing water connection is lead and will be replaced when we connect new house up. Existing sewer connection and the mains sewer runs along the back of the garden. One service charge we have is £1200 for NIE to disconnect existing supply and reconnect to new meter location.

 

We have a house to demolish but the reclaimed materials will offset this cost and hopefully generate a few thousand on top (Belfast bricks and Bangor blue slates and loads of lead and copper)

 

We have plenty of room on site to spread out excavation material so hopefully site works costs can be kept down.

 

Tbh I've not spoken directly to all of the of suppliers as I've been concentrating on getting in touch with the contractors. 

 

We're in a weird situation where we have a large plot in a town and have to have an appropriately sized house to meet market expectations for valuation and resale. No acces for a second property unfortunately. That means 4 bedrooms. As it's a sloping site, we have a basement. Currently designed as part heated and part unheated. We've an obvious cost saving by having the whole level as unheated storage and utility space. Big saving on tanking and finishes, or forget about it entirely. But may be a false economy a we'll always have the structural costs regardless (rising walls would be 1.5m high at the back). Definitely more thinking to be done and another meeting with architect once planning comes through next month.

[Declan52]

Is moving on-site and living in a caravan an option. Would save you a fair bit in your monthly outgoings, plus you would be on-site every day. 

Is ICF the chosen route no matter what or is there any option to price up a timber frame or block build.

[Conor]

2 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

Is moving on-site and living in a caravan an option. Would save you a fair bit in your monthly outgoings, plus you would be on-site every day. 

Is ICF the chosen route no matter what or is there any option to price up a timber frame or block build.

 

The plan is to stay in our current house (different site) and move in to the new house as soon as practicable. Envisage getting the basement livable first while we do the finishing on the floors above. A mobile on site is plan B if we have to sell our current house to release funds to get the house water tight.

 

With the basement level and wanting to get to passive spec, ICF is the best choice and fastest way. I'm open to other methods if budget force us in that direction, but I'm sold on ICF.

[Declan52]

What about a combination. Use ICF for the more difficult aspect in the basement then get a tf company out to measure up and do you a frame. Then with the frame up you can finish the job yourself by doing as much as you can and then source the rest of the materials and labour that you can't do.

[Conor]

3 hours ago, Declan52 said:

What about a combination. Use ICF for the more difficult aspect in the basement then get a tf company out to measure up and do you a frame. Then with the frame up you can finish the job yourself by doing as much as you can and then source the rest of the materials and labour that you can't do.

Had actually considered that at the very start. May revert to that if it's more cost effective.

 

I'm confident in doing basic joinery, all the plumbing apart from boilers, kitchen fitting, bathrooms etc... Certainly ways I can save money.

[Alexphd1]

@Triassic do you have any photos of your home made props might be handy on next build.