oranjeboom Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 I've got a sliding door that weighs circa 800kg and the best way to get it to the back of the house is via means of a crane. Extra expense at just under £1k which includes insurance for the crane, but not for the door. It can get breezy here and I want to be sure that if it all goes wrong (i.e. crane topples over into the house, smashing the new roof, skylights and ultimately the door), then I need the security that I'm fully covered. Site insurance only seems to cover plant hire up to around 20k - not quite enough for a £1m crane, so I will simply have to fork out on the separate crane insurance that the crane firm have offered (£260). How about my door? Contractors fitting that won't take responsibility for that. I don't have site insurance yet, but will that cover me if the worst happens? I'll be getting site insurance soon in any case as most of the trades will be showing up in the next 6months now (most bits were done by me up to this point/or contractors had insurance). Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 (edited) Have you considered a mini crawler crane? We looked at these for our floor beams and also the windows. It might help hugely de-risk the move too? The price we were quoted for a week was £1500, with £2000 for the operation (including their stay). So if you only need it for a day or so, could be possible? The transport up to Scotland was silly money tho. Also worth considering how you actually get it into position - one reason we couldn't use a crane for the windows was the roof overhang - we'd have gotten the windows up, but not in, our overhang on one elevation is 500mm+. Oh, and will the crane lift it straight off the truck? You're definitely right to get the insurance checked out - as our recent experience shows, things DO happen. And be crystal clear who is responsible for what activity. Also checking how the unit will be supported - after our disaster when the units fell over on the truck, we had to take them out one at a time with HIAB - and it was only because I insisted we put a timber runner under the frame (low threshold) that it wasn't seriously warped. The operators wasn't too clued up on window lifting. http://www.maedaminicranes.co.uk/application/pdf/lc383.pdf Edited September 3, 2016 by jamiehamy Adding pic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oranjeboom Posted September 4, 2016 Author Share Posted September 4, 2016 Thanks Jamie. Windows were imported from EU and were precariously unloaded a few weeks ago with a forklift and a sideloader, so hoisting them over with a Hiab on arrival is not an option. Would not have been possible anyway as the weight is too much/reach required is too far (25m). Think you lose circa 1t for every horizontal metre so the working radius is simply too far for most smaller cranes including spiders/hiabs. I'll just have to bite the bullet and go for a 40t crane. Good point about the runners under the windows. My 800kg doors have re-inforced steel in the frame so hoping the warping is minimised. If we place runner underneath, then we won't be able to get it out as the door will have to be placed into the opening straight away and I cant see how we will lift that to remove the runner The insurance I will have to look into for sure. Don't want any mishaps with plant, property or people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Punter Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 I think you may need an Appointed Person to create a lifting plan, as this is not a straightforward lift. The plan should consider ground conditions, crane type, load type, load slinging, signalling / radios. Your own insurance should cover damage to the property or people, but you will need to take up the crane operators insurance as well. Crane operations are very tightly controlled by the LOLER regs and the HSE will come down hard if you ignore them and something goes wrong as a result. Another option is to arrange a contract lift, where the crane operator takes all the risk and plans the lift, but it is often very expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oranjeboom Posted September 4, 2016 Author Share Posted September 4, 2016 7 minutes ago, Mr Punter said: Another option is to arrange a contract lift, where the crane operator takes all the risk and plans the lift, but it is often very expensive. Yes, I found that there was not much in it from the quotes I have received so far, but will definitely go fro contracted lift. Did have a guy offer me a cash deal but it's not worth the risk with 800kg of glass spinning 15m above in the breeze! And I think some offer Insurance “on the hook” which should cover damage to the doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 Can you crane the complete unit over then remove the sliding doors and then lift these in on there own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 Re the "load swinging in a breeze" thing. My boat is craned in and out of the water each year, arranged by the harbour master as a group lift. We never just lift a boat and let it swing, there are always two long ropes with 2 people on the ground holding them to control any swing and keep the "load" pointing the right way. I am sure the windage of a boat is more than that of a window, and certainly the weight is more. A few of the boat owners are trained as banksmen so we only have to hire the crane, not a contract lift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 (edited) 11 hours ago, oranjeboom said: Windows were imported from EU and were precariously unloaded a few weeks ago with a forklift and a sideloader, so hoisting them over with a Hiab on arrival is not an option. Would not have been possible anyway as the weight is too much/reach required is too far (25m). Think you lose circa 1t for every horizontal metre so the working radius is simply too far for most smaller cranes including spiders/hiabs. I'll just have to bite the bullet and go for a 40t crane. I was thinking for a small crawler crane to actually lift it round the side, if you have enough clearance/access? There are some different specs, but that's what some are meant for and they are fairly narrow - would have a far less complex operation and 800kg should be no problem. The window would always be within a metre of the ground. But yes, just too far for HIAB - This one would do 790kg to 21m but would probably not clear the house http://www.3bcranehire.co.uk/cranehire/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Plant-Hiab-XS-288-Lift-Capacities.pdf I got a HIAB to lift our phone box(750kg) 15m - you should see the bend in the boom! If I can find a pic I'll upload. (can't find phone box pic but the container weights quite a bit more) Edited September 4, 2016 by jamiehamy added pic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 Whatever you do - don't watch any videos on the matter https://www.rt.com/news/311458-crane-collapse-hollande-house/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oranjeboom Posted September 5, 2016 Author Share Posted September 5, 2016 11 hours ago, jamiehamy said: Whatever you do - don't watch any videos on the matter https://www.rt.com/news/311458-crane-collapse-hollande-house/ Too late!!!!! 11 hours ago, jamiehamy said: (can't find phone box pic but the container weights quite a bit more) I was thinking that was a big/secure phone phone box!!! The problem I have is that the rig will most likely hit the gable roof if the crane is down the side of the house. There's a field next door, but that will be too cumbersome (farmer's permission, trees, matting required) and I reckon with all the extra gear required will probably cost more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 On 3 September 2016 at 21:26, oranjeboom said: I've got a sliding door that weighs circa 800kg and the best way to get it to the back of the house is via means of a crane. Extra expense at just under £1k which includes insurance for the crane, but not for the door. It can get breezy here and I want to be sure that if it all goes wrong (i.e. crane topples over into the house, smashing the new roof, skylights and ultimately the door), then I need the security that I'm fully covered. Site insurance only seems to cover plant hire up to around 20k - not quite enough for a £1m crane, so I will simply have to fork out on the separate crane insurance that the crane firm have offered (£260). How about my door? Contractors fitting that won't take responsibility for that. I don't have site insurance yet, but will that cover me if the worst happens? I'll be getting site insurance soon in any case as most of the trades will be showing up in the next 6months now (most bits were done by me up to this point/or contractors had insurance). Thanks! How far does it have to move after it gets off the hiab? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oranjeboom Posted September 5, 2016 Author Share Posted September 5, 2016 4 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: How far does it have to move after it gets off the hiab? The door is already here, sitting in the driveway. Of course the fitters that agreed to fit all doors and windows changed their minds when they looked at the door weights etc (even though I sent them all the flipping drawings, weights, dimensions). So I'll likely go with someone else and get a crane in. The big door has to go round the back of the house (circa 22m), so plan is to crane it into the opening, i.e. get the bottom of the door in first at an angle, and then with some slack, push the top of the door into position (ensuring we don't push it over!!), Will probably just cut the slings insitu if we can't leverage them out. 17 hours ago, ProDave said: My boat is craned in and out of the water each year, arranged by the harbour master as a group lift. We never just lift a boat and let it swing, there are always two long ropes with 2 people on the ground holding them to control any swing and keep the "load" pointing the right way. Yes, was going to attach some 'guide ropes (?)' to stop it spinning as once over the hedge it will easily catch the breeze that we get here from the adjacent fields. 23 hours ago, Declan52 said: Can you crane the complete unit over then remove the sliding doors and then lift these in on there own. It all arrived as one complete product (fully glazed doors fitted in frame) to save on transport costs and minimise risks. Fitters had a look at taking doors out and it's not possible without taking frame apart which seems risky. They also did not want to deglaze the 3G glass (240g each). Have another crane company quoting today. Getting my bank manager ready for another loan.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan52 Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 When the frame is fitted and if something goes wrong how do you get the door out to repair it??? Must be an easy way to get the door out?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Why not make a timber sled and hire a turfer winch? Get a few hands to the pump and heave the bugger around? Make a timber steps with the last one level to the threshold and then lever it into position. Whats the likely crane and associated costs to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 We (I.e partner and me) moved our French doors (178kg) on timber rollers, but that was inside and the ground was completely flat. We could have done the same with the 250kg and 220kg units as when upright it's easy to keep it there - but wouldn't fancy it with an 800kg unit. Sounds like a big crane is the only real option here. Pictures please! When we fitted the big units, we did just as you said - got the bottom in at an angle and then put upright - we also had a 500kg hoist on the rafters just inside and that helped take the weight when we wanted to adjust it. I suppose the key is to make sure that when the bottom goes in, it's in exactly the right place - i.e putting battens along the back in just the right place so that when you bring it upright, it can't budge backwards. The worst part of it is, when it's in, no-one will ever quite get it - that's an 800kg unit! Only you will ever really know just what a feat it was to get it in there! All the best! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oranjeboom Posted September 7, 2016 Author Share Posted September 7, 2016 On 9/5/2016 at 14:22, Nickfromwales said: Why not make a timber sled and hire a turfer winch? Get a few hands to the pump and heave the bugger around? Make a timber steps with the last one level to the threshold and then lever it into position. Whats the likely crane and associated costs to be? Doors are quite long (4.7m) and high (2.5m) and are heavy (800kg).It's all on a pallet already, but would have to cross tarmac, grass and a bit of a slope also (probably 45m in total). Crane with all insurances will be approx £1500plus VAT. Plus the window fitting quote of £3-4.5k. I've actually had another quote from another firm today and they came in at 4.5k and they didn't mention crane at all and neither did I question too much how they would do it. As long as I end up with a door that functions is as airtight as possible.... 4 hours ago, jamiehamy said: We (I.e partner and me) moved our French doors (178kg) on timber rollers, but that was inside and the ground was completely flat. We could have done the same with the 250kg and 220kg units as when upright it's easy to keep it there - but wouldn't fancy it with an 800kg unit. Sounds like a big crane is the only real option here. Pictures please! The worst part of it is, when it's in, no-one will ever quite get it - that's an 800kg unit! Only you will ever really know just what a feat it was to get it in there! All the best! .Pictures? It'll be in the press "Crane destroys newbuild. Wife files for divorce" Hopefully this other glazing firm can do the job without a crane - will no doubt be back on here with more BS and problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 HOW MUCH ?!? Ill be up tomorrow to fit it. I can have a month off then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 Q: How many forumites does it take to manually lift an 800Kg window? At 4.7M long you can probably get 6 or 7 people along each side so that's a lift of 57Kg per person. Less if you can fit more. Do able? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 Having helped install a 5m long, roughly 900kg triple glazed lift and slide, forget about people lifting it. The sheer sense of mass of the thing was incredible. It's so top-heavy that the slightest tilt would end in disaster. We'd originally planned for a crane to install from outside using exactly the tilt-and-drop method described above, but there were issues with the scaffolding (despite repeated assurances from the installers before they got onsite that it wouldn't be a problem). In the end, we got it in through our (thankfully unusually tall) front door, rolled it on scaffold poles to where it need to be, then somehow manhandled and wedged it into place from inside. Still not sure how we managed it with four of us, if I'm honest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oranjeboom Posted September 7, 2016 Author Share Posted September 7, 2016 45 minutes ago, jack said: We'd originally planned for a crane to install from outside using exactly the tilt-and-drop method described above, but there were issues with the scaffolding (despite repeated assurances from the installers before they got onsite that it wouldn't be a problem). In the end, we got it in through our (thankfully unusually tall) front door, rolled it on scaffold poles to where it need to be, then somehow manhandled and wedged it into place from inside. Still not sure how we managed it with four of us, if I'm honest! Hi Jack, what are you doing this weekend? My front door is too small for us in this case, so no options there. 1 hour ago, ProDave said: Q: How many forumites does it take to manually lift an 800Kg window? At 4.7M long you can probably get 6 or 7 people along each side so that's a lift of 57Kg per person. Less if you can fit more. Do able? It's a beefy door and I think a bit of a 'elf'n'safety' issue if we rely on people to manually carry it. Would not want any injuries with this one! 2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said: HOW MUCH ?!? Ill be up tomorrow to fit it. I can have a month off then. install cost of 4.5k is for 21 doors/windows, not just this beast! But it is more expensive when I was getting quotes within the UK for manufacture which was around 3k. I'm in Kent and there doesn't seem to be a lack of work here for the trades so do get some crazy quotes back. But if you and Jack want to pop along this weekend just let me know (still got the Welsh flag on the scaffolding so easy to find). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 17 minutes ago, oranjeboom said: Hi Jack, what are you doing this weekend? ... But if you and Jack want to pop along this weekend just let me know (still got the Welsh flag on the scaffolding so easy to find). Ha, tempting! But seeing how stressful it was for even experienced installers to do this, I think I'll pass thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 1 hour ago, ProDave said: Q: How many forumites does it take to manually lift an 800Kg window? At 4.7M long you can probably get 6 or 7 people along each side so that's a lift of 57Kg per person. Less if you can fit more. Do able? We used 6 people to lift our 250kg unit and one to help keep it upright. It was pretty top heavy but manageable - just. With 800kg, it would be in dodgy territory. As long as everyone is fully briefed and risks assessed, understood and mitigated then it's an option, but probably as fraught as crane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 2 hours ago, jamiehamy said: ... As long as everyone is fully briefed and risks assessed, understood and mitigated then it's an option, but probably as fraught as crane. I personally don't think it's an option that can ever be safe unless it's in conjunction with some sort of heavy-duty fail safe support system - either a solid frame with outriggers to prevent tipping, or some sort of strap system attached to hard points like rafters or floor joists. Having seen how hard it was just rolling it on scaffold poles, there's no way I'd accept the responsibility for nearly a ton's worth of top-heavy glass being carried by people without such safety systems. If it tips and lands on someone, they're dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 Agreed - a jig of sorts, people at either end or a restraint system the prevents it falling over, repositioned during move. To be clear tho - widnae be me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 Get me some ratchet straps, some RedBull and some running shoes. I'll have it in before nightfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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