nexgen graphene heating panels

[Clive Osborne]

24 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

Sorry, but you seem to be avoiding the question a bit.  All this stuff about CO₂ emissions is just a red herring, and has no bearing at all when comparing one form of electric resistance heating with any other, as I'm absolutely sure you know.

 

The resistance of the heating element is neither here nor there either, as all that changes is the heat output, or electrical power input, for any given applied voltage, as I'm sure you're already aware.

 

Let's try making it a bit simpler.  If your heating elements are supplied with 1 kW of electrical power input, do they give out more than 1 kW of heat?

 

 

I was asked a question about SAP and answered it

 

[Clive Osborne]

15 minutes ago, Clive Osborne said:

 

 

This is what you put originally 

 

Nexgen are just hype merchants who skate around the advertising rulesusing carefully chosen words to suggest that their heaters"might" be more efficient than others, as a way of fooling those who just have no grasp of the basic laws of physics.

 

Also why I replied. Obviously I find this insulting and you could have just asked us directly. As I said we have independent testing and I am quite happy to share it on here when we have everything back. I can tell you now there is a difference.We are not hype merchants or trying to fool anybody. We manufacture here in the UK and you are more than welcome to come and see us via appointment at the factory . 

[Clive Osborne]

On 17/04/2019 at 10:05, ProDave said:

Okay I accept that for a true IR heater.  the sort of things used a lot in churches to save heating the whole massive leaky building, instead shine some heat on the parishioners.

 

But this is a graphite "panel" that you put under the floor or behind the plasterboard on a wall.  Please someone explain to me how this is ANY different to ANY form or resistive electric heating placed under the floor.  If this claims to be radiant heat, then so is my under floor heating?

Hi Dave Nexgen is not a panel it is 0.5mm thick and goes on walls and ceilings like wallpaper . We embrace the correct temperature/wavelength to get the best FIR performance possible.Thanks Clive 

[SteamyTea]

23 minutes ago, Clive Osborne said:

I am quite happy to share it on here when we have everything back

Chop Chop then as I am interested in seeing the data, methods used to analysis it and the conclusions drawn.

Where is your factory, if it is local to me I may drop in.

Just seen you are in Andover, about time I did a trip up country, can pick up @JSHarrison the way.

Edited July 11, 2019 by SteamyTea

[joe90]

4 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

can pick up @JSHarrison the way.

 

And me please, I await this info on testing.

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, joe90 said:

And me please

Pick you up too, you will need to keep that garage warm when working all winter on your car and tractor.

[joe90]

2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Pick you up too, you will need to keep that garage warm when working all winter on your car and tractor.

 

Ha, thermal undies use NO energy (but the occasional pasty helps).

[scottishjohn]

I am still awaiting the answer to my question 

130sqm house with near passiv insulation levels  heat load of 2400kw per year 

why should i use nexgen instead of UFH 

and more importantly what would the cost of a system with controls to do this and total electricity required to accomplish an ambient temp in house of 22c 

can it use a mix of solar pv and mains as power supply for winter when solar pv cannot provide enough  energy to run the nexgen panels 

you say it is fitted like wallpaper --that means it is not behind the wall but on the habitable side of it ,so would need to be covered by something ?

do you have an installation video ?

Edited July 11, 2019 by scottishjohn

[Clive Osborne]

5 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

I am still awaiting the answer to my question 

130sqm house with near passiv insulation levels  heat load of 2400kw per year 

why should i use nexgen instead of UFH 

and more importantly what would the cost of a system with controls to do this and total electricity required to accomplish an ambient temp in house of 22c 

can it use a mix of solar pv and mains as power supply for winter when solar pv cannot provide enough  energy to run the nexgen panels 

you say it is fitted like wallpaper --that means it is not behind the wall but on the habitable side of it ,so would need to be covered by something ?

do you have an installation video ?

As I said let's work on heat loss per square meter. What is it ? I have never seen an EPC that gives correct heat loads if you have full heat loss calcs post them here . As I said quite happy to go through it. How many air changes per hour ? 

[Clive Osborne]

6 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Chop Chop then as I am interested in seeing the data, methods used to analysis it and the conclusions drawn.

Where is your factory, if it is local to me I may drop in.

Just seen you are in Andover, about time I did a trip up country, can pick up @JSHarrison the way.

Nobody " Just drops in " I dont think there is much point anyway. I'm happy to share test results and you will be more than happy to try and pull them apart. But they are independent I can't really do more than that. Please understand i posted on here after someone posted the below. We are a small UK manufacturer and found this both insulting and incorrect.I will post test results soon.

Nexgen are just hype merchants who skate around the advertising rulesusing carefully chosen words to suggest that their heaters"might" be more efficient than others, as a way of fooling those who just have no grasp of the basic laws of physics.

[Jeremy Harris]

8 hours ago, Clive Osborne said:

I was asked a question about SAP and answered it

 

 

I've (repeatedly) asked you a very specific question about efficiency.  You have studiously avoided answering it.  Will you please state the efficiency of your heaters, in terms of electrical power delivered from the mains to heat output power that is emitted by your heaters.

 

This data should be at your fingertips, as it will have been required when you you undertook product testing for ErP and Lot 20.  Just post an image of the energy efficiency label showing the rating if you wish.

 

I would very much like to see the hard data to support this claim from your advertising, please:

 

 

 

[Barney12]

8 hours ago, joe90 said:

 

Ha, thermal undies use NO energy (but the occasional pasty helps).

 

As there appears to be some issues with clarity of information on this thread could you just confirm that you put the pasty in your pants? 

Do you have any efficiency calcs?

[Jeremy Harris]

I'm part way through doing a desk top study, comparing the efficiency claims made by Nexgen in their advertising, using a specific, known, whole house heating requirement, using hard data for primary energy efficiency and local system conversion efficiency.  It'll probably take me an hour or so, as I want to be 100% certain that the data I'm using is valid.

[SteamyTea]

18 minutes ago, Barney12 said:

As there appears to be some issues with clarity of information on this thread could you just confirm that you put the pasty in your pants? 

Do you have any efficiency calcs?

Joe90 lives in Devon, they do odd things there with pasties and cream teas.

 

 

[joe90]

1 hour ago, Barney12 said:

 

As there appears to be some issues with clarity of information on this thread could you just confirm that you put the pasty in your pants? 

Do you have any efficiency calcs?

 

I find that if I put the pasty in my mouth not my bottom I gain more calories hence generating more calories to raise my body temp but I have no pear reviewed data to prove this (and I don’t need cream!).

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I find that if I put the pasty in my mouth not my bottom

Took me ages to find out the difference between an oral and anal thermometer.

It is the taste!

 

Jeremy is going to post up something really serious and sciency about efficiencies soon, hope I have not put people off.

Edited July 12, 2019 by SteamyTea

[Jeremy Harris]

Nexgen heating– Desktop performance comparison with electric wet underfloor heating

 

Nexgen ( @Clive Osborne ) claim in their advertising that their electric resistance heating system uses, quote: “around 55% less energy than a Water based system”.  This desk top analysis seeks to examine that claim, using known data.

 

Example used for comparison

 

For simplicity, and because I have hard performance and heat loss data to hand, the house used for this comparison will be my own.  This has a wet underfloor heating system, that covers about 85% of the floor area.  It is an electrically powered system, so is a fair comparison with the electrically powered Nexgen heating system.  In terms of energy efficiency, in the context of primary energy usage versus delivered heat energy output, our electrically heated wet underfloor heating system is comparable to using a gas boiler as the heat source, and slightly more efficient than if it used an oil fired boiler or LPG fired boiler. 

 

Primary energy efficiency factors can be found in the BRE definitions that are used in SAP (https://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/SAP/2012/Emission-and-primary-factors-2013-2027.pdf) and are:

 

Mains gas = 1.28

 

Electricity = 3.28

 

For example, for a house heating system that consumes 1 kWh of energy at the point of entry of the energy source, then for mains gas that would be equivalent to 1.28 kWh of primary energy required, and for electricity it would be equivalent to 3.28 kWh of primary energy required.  These ratios are roughly equivalent to cost, so mains gas is currently about 1/3^rd the cost of electricity for any given amount of energy.

 

I have a fairly accurate thermal model for the house used in this example.  The key data are:

 

Worst case heat loss (-10°C OAT, +21°C room temperature) = 1,672 W

 

Underfloor heating floor surface temperature (for above conditions) = 23.2°C

 

Heat loss to the underlying ground (ground temperature constant 8°C) = 136 W

 

Basic efficiency of wet underfloor heating (ignoring energy source) = 91.87%

 

Heating power required = 1.0885 * 1,672 = 1,820 W

 

Heat source primary efficiency comparison

 

The source of heat for this wet underfloor heating system is a Carrier air source heat pump, and with an outside temperature of -10°C and a flow temperature of 40°C this has a coefficient of performance of 2.7.  This directly equates to an efficiency (in terms of electrical power in to heat power out) of 270%.

 

If the heat source was a condensing gas boiler, then typically the efficiency would be about 88% for these operating conditions, perhaps slightly higher due to the low return temperature and high probability of full condensation heat recovery taking place.

 

If the heat source was a direct electric resistance heating element, such as an electric boiler, then the efficiency would be extremely close to 100%.

 

Applying the primary energy efficiency factors to these three fuel sources/heating types gives the following primary power equivalents for the specified conditions:

 

Electricity, via ASHP = 1,820 W * (1/2.7) * 3.28 = 2,211 W

 

Mains gas = 1,820 W * 1.136 * 1.28 = 2,646 W

 

Electricity, direct resistance water heating = 1,820 * 3.28 = 5,970 W

 

Heating system efficiency comparison

 

In the Nexgen advertising material there is a specific efficiency claim, namely that the Nexgen electric resistance heating system uses “around 55% less energy than a Water based system”.   

 

If we take the Nexgen advertising claim at face value, and use this with the data from the known performance for the wet underfloor heating system in this example, then “around 55% less energy” implies that the Nexgen heating system only requires around 45% of the energy input for any given heat output. 

 

We know, from the data provided by Nexgen, that their heating elements are resistance heaters, and we also know that (ignoring any loss in the mains voltage to low voltage conversion system) that all resistance heaters have an efficiency of very close to 100% ^[1] .  In the comparison below this upper efficiency limit of 100%^[1] is used.

 

If we compare the advertised performance of the Nexgen system, with the known performance of the wet underfloor heating system, then we get the following primary power figures for the example house heating requirement:

 

Electricity, via Nexgen heaters = 1,672 W * 3.28 = 5,484 W

 

Converting the primary power from all systems considered here gives the following relative efficiency comparison, in terms of primary power, with electricity via an ASHP being assumed to be 100% :

 

Electricity, via ASHP and wet underfloor heating = 100%

 

Mains gas, via condensing boiler and wet underfloor heating = 83.6%

 

Nexgen heaters = 40.3%

 

Electricity, via direct resistance heating and wet underfloor heating = 37%

 

Conclusions

 

Is the claim made by Nexgen that their heating system uses “around 55% less energy” supported by this evidence?

 

The short answer is that their claim seems to be unrealistic, and very unlikely to be true.  In this worked example, for a house that has wet underfloor heating and known heat loss characteristics, then, at best, the Nexgen heating system might be around 3.3% more efficient than direct electrically heated wet underfloor heating.  It should be noted that very few wet underfloor heating systems use a direct electric boiler.

 

A more realistic comparison would be with a mains gas heated underfloor heating system, as this is probably the most common arrangement for this type of heating.  The Nexgen heating system is 37.2% less efficient than such a heating system.

 

 

^[1] The Nexgen efficiency claim seems to defy the laws of physics.  We know that the Nexgen heating elements are of a fairly conventional resistance type, albeit using a non-metallic film as the element.  All resistance heating elements, no matter what they are made from, behave in exactly the same way in terms of their efficiency in converting electrical input to heat output.  The Nexgen claim amounts to that for an over-unity device, and such a device cannot exist, as it would contradict the First Law of Thermodynamics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics

 

Additionally, the Nexgen system operates at 24 V, so must include some form of voltage conversion unit. Any such unit will be less than 100% efficient, so there will be losses associated with that which reduce the overall system efficiency (unless the voltage conversion unit heat losses contribute to the room heating).

 

 

[SteamyTea]

There is another way to look at efficiency, and that is comparing the surface areas of the emitter and the receiver.

This is something that bugs me about radiative heating.

If the object to be heated has an exposed area of 1m², and the emitter covers 10m², then that is a simple 10% conversion, with 90% not heating the object.

This ratio cannot be reduced by increasing the temperature of the emitter, or reducing the distance between the emitter and the receiver.  That just changes the temperatures reached.

Also, when keeping people warm, the claim that the local air temperature is unimportant just seems odd to me.  As we breath in and out, we move air about.  If we breath in cold air, we have to heat that up, using energy.  As we breath out, that warm air is expelled, loosing some of the energy that we have used in heating it.

There is also the enthrapy losses from the change in humidity.

It is much easier, cheaper and more efficient to just heat the air that we live in.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by SteamyTea

[ProDave]

So just how are these Nexgene panels trying to work.

 

If you are just trying to heat a room to a set temperature, then it does not matter two hoots what form of electric heater it is, it will take the same number of KWh of heat to heat the room to the set temperature so no form of electric heater will be cheaper than the next one.

 

Or are you trying to keep the room and it's contents at a lower temperature, and just heat the people in the room by radiant heat,  so they feel warm, even though the room isn't, as in the old cold church example previously mentioned?

 

If that is what you are trying to achieve, then why don't you clearly state that, and then people would believe lower running cost claims?

[Clive Osborne]

8 hours ago, JSHarris said:

Nexgen heating– Desktop performance comparison with electric wet underfloor heating

 

Nexgen ( @Clive Osborne ) claim in their advertising that their electric resistance heating system uses, quote: “around 55% less energy than a Water based system”.  This desk top analysis seeks to examine that claim, using known data.

 

Example used for comparison

 

For simplicity, and because I have hard performance and heat loss data to hand, the house used for this comparison will be my own.  This has a wet underfloor heating system, that covers about 85% of the floor area.  It is an electrically powered system, so is a fair comparison with the electrically powered Nexgen heating system.  In terms of energy efficiency, in the context of primary energy usage versus delivered heat energy output, our electrically heated wet underfloor heating system is comparable to using a gas boiler as the heat source, and slightly more efficient than if it used an oil fired boiler or LPG fired boiler. 

 

Primary energy efficiency factors can be found in the BRE definitions that are used in SAP (https://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/SAP/2012/Emission-and-primary-factors-2013-2027.pdf) and are:

 

Mains gas = 1.28

 

Electricity = 3.28

 

For example, for a house heating system that consumes 1 kWh of energy at the point of entry of the energy source, then for mains gas that would be equivalent to 1.28 kWh of primary energy required, and for electricity it would be equivalent to 3.28 kWh of primary energy required.  These ratios are roughly equivalent to cost, so mains gas is currently about 1/3^rd the cost of electricity for any given amount of energy.

 

I have a fairly accurate thermal model for the house used in this example.  The key data are:

 

Worst case heat loss (-10°C OAT, +21°C room temperature) = 1,672 W

 

Underfloor heating floor surface temperature (for above conditions) = 23.2°C

 

Heat loss to the underlying ground (ground temperature constant 8°C) = 136 W

 

Basic efficiency of wet underfloor heating (ignoring energy source) = 91.87%

 

Heating power required = 1.0885 * 1,672 = 1,820 W

 

Heat source primary efficiency comparison

 

The source of heat for this wet underfloor heating system is a Carrier air source heat pump, and with an outside temperature of -10°C and a flow temperature of 40°C this has a coefficient of performance of 2.7.  This directly equates to an efficiency (in terms of electrical power in to heat power out) of 270%.

 

If the heat source was a condensing gas boiler, then typically the efficiency would be about 88% for these operating conditions, perhaps slightly higher due to the low return temperature and high probability of full condensation heat recovery taking place.

 

If the heat source was a direct electric resistance heating element, such as an electric boiler, then the efficiency would be extremely close to 100%.

 

Applying the primary energy efficiency factors to these three fuel sources/heating types gives the following primary power equivalents for the specified conditions:

 

Electricity, via ASHP = 1,820 W * (1/2.7) * 3.28 = 2,211 W

 

Mains gas = 1,820 W * 1.136 * 1.28 = 2,646 W

 

Electricity, direct resistance water heating = 1,820 * 3.28 = 5,970 W

 

Heating system efficiency comparison

 

In the Nexgen advertising material there is a specific efficiency claim, namely that the Nexgen electric resistance heating system uses “around 55% less energy than a Water based system”.   

 

If we take the Nexgen advertising claim at face value, and use this with the data from the known performance for the wet underfloor heating system in this example, then “around 55% less energy” implies that the Nexgen heating system only requires around 45% of the energy input for any given heat output. 

 

We know, from the data provided by Nexgen, that their heating elements are resistance heaters, and we also know that (ignoring any loss in the mains voltage to low voltage conversion system) that all resistance heaters have an efficiency of very close to 100% ^[1] .  In the comparison below this upper efficiency limit of 100%^[1] is used.

 

If we compare the advertised performance of the Nexgen system, with the known performance of the wet underfloor heating system, then we get the following primary power figures for the example house heating requirement:

 

Electricity, via Nexgen heaters = 1,672 W * 3.28 = 5,484 W

 

Converting the primary power from all systems considered here gives the following relative efficiency comparison, in terms of primary power, with electricity via an ASHP being assumed to be 100% :

 

Electricity, via ASHP and wet underfloor heating = 100%

 

Mains gas, via condensing boiler and wet underfloor heating = 83.6%

 

Nexgen heaters = 40.3%

 

Electricity, via direct resistance heating and wet underfloor heating = 37%

 

Conclusions

 

Is the claim made by Nexgen that their heating system uses “around 55% less energy” supported by this evidence?

 

The short answer is that their claim seems to be unrealistic, and very unlikely to be true.  In this worked example, for a house that has wet underfloor heating and known heat loss characteristics, then, at best, the Nexgen heating system might be around 3.3% more efficient than direct electrically heated wet underfloor heating.  It should be noted that very few wet underfloor heating systems use a direct electric boiler.

 

A more realistic comparison would be with a mains gas heated underfloor heating system, as this is probably the most common arrangement for this type of heating.  The Nexgen heating system is 37.2% less efficient than such a heating system.

 

 

^[1] The Nexgen efficiency claim seems to defy the laws of physics.  We know that the Nexgen heating elements are of a fairly conventional resistance type, albeit using a non-metallic film as the element.  All resistance heating elements, no matter what they are made from, behave in exactly the same way in terms of their efficiency in converting electrical input to heat output.  The Nexgen claim amounts to that for an over-unity device, and such a device cannot exist, as it would contradict the First Law of Thermodynamics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics

 

Additionally, the Nexgen system operates at 24 V, so must include some form of voltage conversion unit. Any such unit will be less than 100% efficient, so there will be losses associated with that which reduce the overall system efficiency (unless the voltage conversion unit heat losses contribute to the room heating).

 

 

8 hours ago, JSHarris said:

Nexgen heating– Desktop performance comparison with electric wet underfloor heating

 

Nexgen ( @Clive Osborne ) claim in their advertising that their electric resistance heating system uses, quote: “around 55% less energy than a Water based system”.  This desk top analysis seeks to examine that claim, using known data.

 

Example used for comparison

 

For simplicity, and because I have hard performance and heat loss data to hand, the house used for this comparison will be my own.  This has a wet underfloor heating system, that covers about 85% of the floor area.  It is an electrically powered system, so is a fair comparison with the electrically powered Nexgen heating system.  In terms of energy efficiency, in the context of primary energy usage versus delivered heat energy output, our electrically heated wet underfloor heating system is comparable to using a gas boiler as the heat source, and slightly more efficient than if it used an oil fired boiler or LPG fired boiler. 

 

Primary energy efficiency factors can be found in the BRE definitions that are used in SAP (https://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/SAP/2012/Emission-and-primary-factors-2013-2027.pdf) and are:

 

Mains gas = 1.28

 

Electricity = 3.28

 

For example, for a house heating system that consumes 1 kWh of energy at the point of entry of the energy source, then for mains gas that would be equivalent to 1.28 kWh of primary energy required, and for electricity it would be equivalent to 3.28 kWh of primary energy required.  These ratios are roughly equivalent to cost, so mains gas is currently about 1/3^rd the cost of electricity for any given amount of energy.

 

I have a fairly accurate thermal model for the house used in this example.  The key data are:

 

Worst case heat loss (-10°C OAT, +21°C room temperature) = 1,672 W

 

Underfloor heating floor surface temperature (for above conditions) = 23.2°C

 

Heat loss to the underlying ground (ground temperature constant 8°C) = 136 W

 

Basic efficiency of wet underfloor heating (ignoring energy source) = 91.87%

 

Heating power required = 1.0885 * 1,672 = 1,820 W

 

Heat source primary efficiency comparison

 

The source of heat for this wet underfloor heating system is a Carrier air source heat pump, and with an outside temperature of -10°C and a flow temperature of 40°C this has a coefficient of performance of 2.7.  This directly equates to an efficiency (in terms of electrical power in to heat power out) of 270%.

 

If the heat source was a condensing gas boiler, then typically the efficiency would be about 88% for these operating conditions, perhaps slightly higher due to the low return temperature and high probability of full condensation heat recovery taking place.

 

If the heat source was a direct electric resistance heating element, such as an electric boiler, then the efficiency would be extremely close to 100%.

 

Applying the primary energy efficiency factors to these three fuel sources/heating types gives the following primary power equivalents for the specified conditions:

 

Electricity, via ASHP = 1,820 W * (1/2.7) * 3.28 = 2,211 W

 

Mains gas = 1,820 W * 1.136 * 1.28 = 2,646 W

 

Electricity, direct resistance water heating = 1,820 * 3.28 = 5,970 W

 

Heating system efficiency comparison

 

In the Nexgen advertising material there is a specific efficiency claim, namely that the Nexgen electric resistance heating system uses “around 55% less energy than a Water based system”.   

 

If we take the Nexgen advertising claim at face value, and use this with the data from the known performance for the wet underfloor heating system in this example, then “around 55% less energy” implies that the Nexgen heating system only requires around 45% of the energy input for any given heat output. 

 

We know, from the data provided by Nexgen, that their heating elements are resistance heaters, and we also know that (ignoring any loss in the mains voltage to low voltage conversion system) that all resistance heaters have an efficiency of very close to 100% ^[1] .  In the comparison below this upper efficiency limit of 100%^[1] is used.

 

If we compare the advertised performance of the Nexgen system, with the known performance of the wet underfloor heating system, then we get the following primary power figures for the example house heating requirement:

 

Electricity, via Nexgen heaters = 1,672 W * 3.28 = 5,484 W

 

Converting the primary power from all systems considered here gives the following relative efficiency comparison, in terms of primary power, with electricity via an ASHP being assumed to be 100% :

 

Electricity, via ASHP and wet underfloor heating = 100%

 

Mains gas, via condensing boiler and wet underfloor heating = 83.6%

 

Nexgen heaters = 40.3%

 

Electricity, via direct resistance heating and wet underfloor heating = 37%

 

Conclusions

 

Is the claim made by Nexgen that their heating system uses “around 55% less energy” supported by this evidence?

 

The short answer is that their claim seems to be unrealistic, and very unlikely to be true.  In this worked example, for a house that has wet underfloor heating and known heat loss characteristics, then, at best, the Nexgen heating system might be around 3.3% more efficient than direct electrically heated wet underfloor heating.  It should be noted that very few wet underfloor heating systems use a direct electric boiler.

 

A more realistic comparison would be with a mains gas heated underfloor heating system, as this is probably the most common arrangement for this type of heating.  The Nexgen heating system is 37.2% less efficient than such a heating system.

 

 

^[1] The Nexgen efficiency claim seems to defy the laws of physics.  We know that the Nexgen heating elements are of a fairly conventional resistance type, albeit using a non-metallic film as the element.  All resistance heating elements, no matter what they are made from, behave in exactly the same way in terms of their efficiency in converting electrical input to heat output.  The Nexgen claim amounts to that for an over-unity device, and such a device cannot exist, as it would contradict the First Law of Thermodynamics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics

 

Additionally, the Nexgen system operates at 24 V, so must include some form of voltage conversion unit. Any such unit will be less than 100% efficient, so there will be losses associated with that which reduce the overall system efficiency (unless the voltage conversion unit heat losses contribute to the room heating).

 

 

11 hours ago, JSHarris said:

 

I've (repeatedly) asked you a very specific question about efficiency.  You have studiously avoided answering it.  Will you please state the efficiency of your heaters, in terms of electrical power delivered from the mains to heat output power that is emitted by your heaters.

 

This data should be at your fingertips, as it will have been required when you you undertook product testing for ErP and Lot 20.  Just post an image of the energy efficiency label showing the rating if you wish.

 

I would very much like to see the hard data to support this claim from your advertising, please:

 

 

 

 

[joe90]

?......

[Clive Osborne]

First of all you need to differentiate between heating air and heating mass, radiant v convection . Secondly you need to know Nexgens heat up times . Nexgen will warm to a surface temperature of 28C in a couple of minutes ( 35C on walls) this is 24 volt and around 100 to 120 watts PSM. Secondly you need to understand far infrared temperature v wavelength.  Now you need to include whatever is on the floor above Nexgen.  You do not need a screed. On walls it's just paint or plaster. As I said I am happy to post independent testing when we get everything back. We also have test data from Germany versus storage heating and the result was 56% less energy. Maybe wait until you make assumptions.

Lot 20 is to do with controls nothing to do with the heating. Please wait until I post data . Dont forget I only got involved because I found your initial post damaging to our brand without foundation.  You just seem to keep digging. I have not avoided anything I have stated various times I will post independent test results. I am not wasting time reading your assumptions as I know the answer. 

If you want to play around with figures based on warm up times I have given please do. Try it on walls with full far infrared just skimmed with plaster. Then compare it to getting a wet underfloor system rise from 16C to 28C on the surface.I presume it's under a 50mm screed for a start. How long would it take for your UFH to get to the same temperatures ? You are basically saying regardless of the covering it will take the same energy to get to 23C on the surface . We can heat a 20mm tile to 24C in 10 minutes from 15C .Or wait until we publish which has been my response on other posts. Frankly you are just willy waving.For you it's a peeing up the wall contest . For me its many years of work and investment. You are basically saying I may as well sell 1970s bar fire heaters.That said ,I get it, your very smart. I have not wish spending hours on here .But you have not been working on this the last 6 years. You have never even seen the product . Why not read something regarding far infrared panels such as those by Herschel in Germany ?  They compare radiant and convection heating. As a reminder this is what I responded to.

I will show a video of it warming up if I can post it. But it wont be until after the weekend.

Also what flow and return temps do have on your ASHP how do you heat DHW. How many zones have you. All this needs to be taken into account.Do you use a buffer tank ? Did you include maintaince costs , anti freeze ? Checking F gas levels etc.  Warranties etc 

Have a good weekend 

Nexgen are just hype merchants who skate around the advertising rulesusing carefully chosen words to suggest that their heaters"might" be more efficient than others, as a way of fooling those who just have no grasp of the basic laws of physics.

 

 

[joe90]

I think we all wait with bated breath fir your figures and results however laws of physics are set in stone.

[gravelld]

@Clive Osborne when you use the term "efficient" - what do you mean? From your last post, it appears you just mean time-efficient, not input-energy efficient.

[Jeremy Harris]

25 minutes ago, Clive Osborne said:

First of all you need to differentiate between heating air and heating mass, radiant v convection . Secondly you need to know Nexgens heat up times . Nexgen will warm to a surface temperature of 28C in a couple of minutes ( 35C on walls) this is 24 volt and around 100 to 120 watts PSM. Secondly you need to understand far infrared temperature v wavelength.  Now you need to include whatever is on the floor above Nexgen.  You do not need a screed. On walls it's just paint or plaster. As I said I am happy to post independent testing when we get everything back. We also have test data from Germany versus storage heating and the result was 56% less energy. Maybe wait until you make assumptions.

Lot 20 is to do with controls nothing to do with the heating. Please wait until I post data . Dont forget I only got involved because I found your initial post damaging to our brand without foundation.  You just seem to keep digging. I have not avoided anything I have stated various times I will post independent test results. I am not wasting time reading your assumptions as I know the answer. 

If you want to play around with figures based on warm up times I have given please do. Try it on walls with full far infrared just skimmed with plaster. Then compare it to getting a wet underfloor system rise from 16C to 28C on the surface.I presume it's under a 50mm screed for a start. How long would it take for your UFH to get to the same temperatures ? You are basically saying regardless of the covering it will take the same energy to get to 23C on the surface . We can heat a 20mm tile to 24C in 10 minutes from 15C .Or wait until we publish which has been my response on other posts. Frankly you are just willy waving.For you it's a peeing up the wall contest . For me its many years of work and investment. You are basically saying I may as well sell 1970s bar fire heaters.That said ,I get it, your very smart. I have not wish spending hours on here .But you have not been working on this the last 6 years. You have never even seen the product . Why not read something regarding far infrared panels such as those by Herschel in Germany ?  They compare radiant and convection heating. As a reminder this is what I responded to.

I will show a video of it warming up if I can post it. But it wont be until after the weekend.

Also what flow and return temps do have on your ASHP how do you heat DHW. How many zones have you. All this needs to be taken into account.Do you use a buffer tank ? Did you include maintaince costs , anti freeze ? Checking F gas levels etc.  Warranties etc 

Have a good weekend 

Nexgen are just hype merchants who skate around the advertising rulesusing carefully chosen words to suggest that their heaters"might" be more efficient than others, as a way of fooling those who just have no grasp of the basic laws of physics.

 

 

 

@Clive Osborne, can you please just answer the question asked about efficiency.

 

The laws of physics are pretty well proven.  If you take a house with a known heat loss, under defined conditions, then it will require a defined amount of heating power in order to maintain a given temperature differential.

 

If your heating system requires less electrical input power in order to provide that heating power, then please give the EXACT mechanism by which that can happen, with supporting evidence.

 

You seem to be exceptionally adept at obfuscation, referring to irrelevant control and maintenance cost aspects in order to avoid answering the fundamental question about efficiency.  Some may view that as being suspicious, but I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt.  Your advertising is clear, it states unequivocally that your heating system uses, quote, “around 55% less energy than a Water based system”.   I have shown very clearly that this doesn't seem to be the case.  The onus is on you to prove that my analysis is flawed. Why not just post the energy efficiency rating for your system?  A simple photo of the energy efficiency label would be a start.

 

By way of background, before I retired I was a senior principal scientist, my first degree was in physical chemistry, my second was physics with electrical engineering, my post-grad training was in aerodynamics and aircraft instrumentation.  I am, therefore, reasonably well-qualified to try to understand the way in which an electrical heating system may perform.