willbish Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) One elevation of my build is a retaining wall about 0.7m high. Here Id like a water bar on the joint between the slab and ICF, the rest of the above grade build I am not so sure. What I'm wondering is.. It's going to take me weeks between laying the first ICF blocks and pouring the concrete. During that time it will be impossible to keep the water bar dry. I've currently got starter track in place and that is holding water on the slab. Water is going to get through under the starter track. So if I'm going to keep the water bar dry I would need to seal the starter track and cover the concrete cavity. It just isn't going to happen. As for drying the bottom of a 2.8m cavity just before pouring concrete no brilliant ideas are springing to mind. Go go gadget arms... So if the water bar is wet and expanded when the concrete is poured could it then shrink later on and leave a void?Potentially this could be worse than not having a water bar at all? In a previous post, I think it was @jamiehamysaid he chose not to use a water bar between slab and ICF, was this one of the reasons by any chance? Edited February 15, 2019 by willbish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, willbish said: As for drying the bottom of a 2.8m cavity just before pouring concrete no brilliant ideas are springing to mind. Go go gadget arms... drill some holes at joint of slab and ICF forms ---then bung them up on pour day which icf system you using ? please explain the term "water bar" I am not familiar with it Edited February 15, 2019 by scottishjohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 22 minutes ago, scottishjohn said: drill some holes at joint of slab and ICF forms ---then bung them up on pour day which icf system you using ? please explain the term "water bar" I am not familiar with it Water bars are a standard detail in any vertical concrete pour where there is more than a single pour and a requirement for the wall to be watertight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Hi will if it is only one section at 0.7 m high that is retaining, why not build that bit up and pour it straight away extending slightly into the non retaining part, add starter bars and continue with the rest at a later date work out concrete amount and try to stick to say 5m so just a small truck load get a line pump in stead of a boom as you won’t need it to just go up a metre. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willbish Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 I could drill some holes. Would have to be a lot, say every 300mm, to ensure its well drained and dry ICF is Logix XRV 6-8 which has 203mm outer skin so would be deep holes too. Bit reluctant to go drilling crazy. Some info on water bar supercast-sw.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 7 minutes ago, JSHarris said: Water bars are a standard detail in any vertical concrete pour where there is more than a single pour and a requirement for the wall to be watertight. maybe on industrial builds - -but never seen that detail on ANY ICF house foundation /wall detail by any of the ICF system suppliers. they all specify tanking + french drain well at least I know what it is now so yes you cannot fit it and leave out in the rain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willbish Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Russell griffiths said: Hi will if it is only one section at 0.7 m high that is retaining, why not build that bit up and pour it straight away extending slightly into the non retaining part, add starter bars and continue with the rest at a later date work out concrete amount and try to stick to say 5m so just a small truck load get a line pump in stead of a boom as you won’t need it to just go up a metre. Nice suggestion, cheers. Will give it some thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 7 hours ago, willbish said: One elevation of my build is a retaining wall about 0.7m high. Here Id like a water bar on the joint between the slab and ICF, the rest of the above grade build I am not so sure. What I'm wondering is.. It's going to take me weeks between laying the first ICF blocks and pouring the concrete. During that time it will be impossible to keep the water bar dry. I've currently got starter track in place and that is holding water on the slab. Water is going to get through under the starter track. So if I'm going to keep the water bar dry I would need to seal the starter track and cover the concrete cavity. It just isn't going to happen. As for drying the bottom of a 2.8m cavity just before pouring concrete no brilliant ideas are springing to mind. Go go gadget arms... So if the water bar is wet and expanded when the concrete is poured could it then shrink later on and leave a void?Potentially this could be worse than not having a water bar at all? In a previous post, I think it was @jamiehamysaid he chose not to use a water bar between slab and ICF, was this one of the reasons by any chance? It was one of the factors, yes. Thwere are of course different products but when I looked I looked it to it I was of the view it was unlikely to be effective. In addition however the backfill will be rock and there is almost no possibility of the water levels building up, so runnjng some drainage pipe as well as a rock backfill will mean no water pressure. We will soon be doinf the backfill as part of finishing the driveway, will be tanking with Bostick Aqueprufe which, according to its own data sheet, will adhere to XPS. We will tank the outer icf with that and put in cheap fibre board to protect from puncture. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, scottishjohn said: maybe on industrial builds - -but never seen that detail on ANY ICF house foundation /wall detail by any of the ICF system suppliers. they all specify tanking + french drain well at least I know what it is now so yes you cannot fit it and leave out in the rain No, it's used on any vertical concrete wall that's built in more than one pour and that's required to be watertight. Ideally, walls that need to be watertight would be done in a single monolithic pour, but where that isn't possible a water bar is a standard detail, one that's been in use for many years now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) lifted from your water bar spec sheet "Integral sealing for construction joints in concrete cast in-situ. Convenient and problem solving in situations where a conventional waterstop would require complex shuttering. sounds like monster over kill to me for a 0.7m wall that you are going to tank + drain anyway do you have rebar sticking out of slab? thats just my view, I would not be tanking AND fitting water bar as well Edited February 15, 2019 by scottishjohn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Our Sika warrantied waterproof concrete system for the basement used waterbars on every vertical and horizontal join. The slab had a stub wall 100mm high and the crew cast in a waterbar sized recess down the centre. They dried it out prior to fitting the water bar using a leaf blower to disperse standing water and then a blow torch to dry the concrete. Same deal for the vertical joins but they obviously did not hold water the same way. Waterbar was fitted in a bed of special Sika mastic (both a deep red colour) and then they tied the rebar and built the shuttering, so it was exposed for a good few days while that was going on, didn't seem to effect it at all. I think the drying exercise was most important for good adhesion of the mastic. There was a stub of waterbar poking out the top of the various vertical joins - only after being exposed for a good few weeks did it start to swell. Does the product you're using have guidelines on exposure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 7 minutes ago, scottishjohn said: lifted from your water bar spec sheet "Integral sealing for construction joints in concrete cast in-situ. Convenient and problem solving in situations where a conventional waterstop would require complex shuttering. sounds like monster over kill to me for a 0.7m wall that you are going to tank + drain anyway do you have rebar sticking out of slab? thats just my view, I would not be tanking AND fitting water bar as well How much experience do you have with casting concrete walls, though? Have you built enough over the years to be able to state definitively that water bars (something you knew nothing at all about until this morning) are not a useful way of allowing a non-monolithic pour to be watertight? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willbish Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 17 minutes ago, Bitpipe said: Does the product you're using have guidelines on exposure? "Supercast SW must not be immersed in water prior to concrete placement, however, Supercast SW20 can tolerate up to 2 day’s exposure to damp conditions on site." I think its pretty critical that the water bar isnt swollen at the time the concrete is placed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishjohn Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, JSHarris said: How much experience do you have with casting concrete walls, though? Have you built enough over the years to be able to state definitively that water bars (something you knew nothing at all about until this morning) are not a useful way of allowing a non-monolithic pour to be watertight? [...] we are talking about a 2ft wall --not a 20m basement -he already said it will be tanked and drained so does it need it -no way largest concrete wall i have cast would 8ft tall when making an inspection pit and it was cast in bits --slab then walls --no water problem for the last 30 years+ no water bar If any ICF maker specified water bars i would have known about them -- [...] Edited February 15, 2019 by recoveringacademic Edited in conjunction with the Moderation Team to focus on the subject matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willbish Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 Easy @scottishjohn. No need to get personal. Granted its not mentioned in the Logix Install Guide, however it was raised during the training day and it is a standard detail on joints that need to be watertight. I could leave it out and be fine. I could spend an extra £100 and have another level of protection. If fitted correctly of course! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, willbish said: Easy @scottishjohn. No need to get personal. The post has been hidden while mods review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willbish Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 1 minute ago, jack said: The post has been hidden while mods review. Good call, it was intentionally insulting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Neil Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 so - is it sort of a dam you put on vertical joints to stop water travelling up the joint. Just watched a SIKA video for their project and just can't grasp it. Does it perform the same sort of function as a groove you might have cut in a stone cill to stop water coming back underneath? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willbish Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 Ive not used it before @Big Neil, my understanding is its used on vertical and horizontal joints where water pressure could 'push' its way through between two sections of concrete. If the water bar comes into contact with water it swells up and thereby fills and minute gap between the two sections of concrete and stops any water travelling through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell griffiths Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Hi will have you checked your preferred water bar against logic blocks i went to see two icf houses both with basements, the water bar poked up out of the slab to high and interfered with the lowest plastic web in the block. Have a check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 In essence it's the same principle that has been used for waterproofing in a range of situations for many years; using something that swells and becomes an aquatard. Canals used puddled clay as an aquatard layer, which works on the same principle. Boreholes and wells are sealed around their casings with a similar material, usually Bentonite, a form of refined clay that swells a lot to form an aquatard around the casing, to prevent surface water from running down the sides and contaminating a clean aquifer, or to stop pressurised underground liquids from being able to reach the surface around the outside of a well casing. Bentonite or similar expanding clays can also used to waterproof basement walls, by putting a layer of the stuff around the outside, before the backfill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willbish Posted February 15, 2019 Author Share Posted February 15, 2019 14 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said: Hi will have you checked your preferred water bar against logic blocks i went to see two icf houses both with basements, the water bar poked up out of the slab to high and interfered with the lowest plastic web in the block. Have a check. The Supercast SW10 is 5mm x 20mm What sort of giant water bar were they using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Neil Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Riiiiigght, so it's like a water version of an intumescent strip then. Bang on. So why doesn't everyone use it just in case? For example when you've dry laid your first course on top of your slab and made sure it is straight, attach it along the joint between the two on the outside edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiehamy Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, Big Neil said: Riiiiigght, so it's like a water version of an intumescent strip then. Bang on. So why doesn't everyone use it just in case? For example when you've dry laid your first course on top of your slab and made sure it is straight, attach it along the joint between the two on the outside edge. Because of its exposed to water, it will expand and me useless. We had several months between slab pour and the icf wall pour. Would have been absolutely impossible to keep it dry. Im not that convinced that drying and blow torching is acceptable - assumption being it would shrink back and then expand when rewetted again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Neil Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 Would it work as an element of say a peel and stick building wrap, so: Peel layer (throw away) - sticky bit - airtightness membrane - waterbar type material - then another peel off layer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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