Small ICF House

[Big Neil]

I've asked a similar question before I know, but having recently watched a fox blocks video where they constructed a small approximately eight or ten foot square building, to be used as a storm shelter, something occurs.

 

Waste levels aside, if all you were building were a 8X8X8 cube where the forms are a foot thick, would it be quick enough to just build the cube, mark out the position of door and maybe window externally, then just have at it with a saw or hot knife?

[Ferdinand]

12 minutes ago, Big Neil said:

I've asked a similar question before I know, but having recently watched a fox blocks video where they constructed a small approximately eight or ten foot square building, to be used as a storm shelter, something occurs.

 

Waste levels aside, if all you were building were a 8X8X8 cube where the forms are a foot thick, would it be quick enough to just build the cube, mark out the position of door and maybe window externally, then just have at it with a saw or hot knife?

 

If it is either a storm shelter or shed, the cut out could be used as a bench or bed inside.

 

But it might be better as a flatpack like the dice you made at school.

 

But I can see no reason why the window and door could not be pre-cut, and the thing be 7ft inside not 8ft, as that would reduce the freight-weight by 15%+.

 

The cut out could be sold to a hipster as chic, to pay for the entire thing ?.

 

F

Edited February 13, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Big Neil]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand said:

But it might be better as a flat pack like the dice you made at school.

 

No idea what you mean?

 

I was particularly thinking of ICF in this case. I thought it might help my understanding of what is possible, to scale the project down from a whole house, where I understand the practicality and issue of not just forming the outside shape and then cutting into if. This being such a small  structure, i culd see the possible speed benefit in just forming the whole cube and then cutting a window and door opening into it.

[scottishjohn]

3 minutes ago, Big Neil said:

 

No idea what you mean?

 

I was particularly thinking of ICF in this case. I thought it might help my understanding of what is possible, to scale the project down from a whole house, where I understand the practicality and issue of not just forming the outside shape and then cutting into if. This being such a small  structure, i culd see the possible speed benefit in just forming the whole cube and then cutting a window and door opening into it.

If you do it that way you will not have any lintel over window and door 

most icf require a bit of rebar above windows and door frame and some even spec vertical re-bar on either side of door opening  bent to over lap the lintel rebar -

-so no not a good idea really and you will be pouring more concrete than you need to and using more blocks 

 

[Big Neil]

26 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

If you do it that way you will not have any lintel over window and door 

most icf require a bit of rebar above windows and door frame and some even spec vertical re-bar on either side of door opening  bent to over lap the lintel rebar -

-so no not a good idea really and you will be pouring more concrete than you need to and using more blocks 

 

I probably should have clarified, thought it was obvious from my first post. I mean putting the forms up and cuttting them prior to adding any rebar or doing the pour.

[scottishjohn]

31 minutes ago, Big Neil said:

 

I probably should have clarified, thought it was obvious from my first post. I mean putting the forms up and cuttting them prior to adding any rebar or doing the pour.

fine then -make framed holes how you like ,not sure why you don,t want to do it the block maker suggests--your way there is no insulation just open ended blocks you are making wooden frames to close up--your choice

[Ferdinand]

2 hours ago, Big Neil said:

 

No idea what you mean?

 

I was particularly thinking of ICF in this case. I thought it might help my understanding of what is possible, to scale the project down from a whole house, where I understand the practicality and issue of not just forming the outside shape and then cutting into if. This being such a small  structure, i culd see the possible speed benefit in just forming the whole cube and then cutting a window and door opening into it.

 

https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/dice2.html

 

Then do it with the appropriate edge hinges.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Big Neil]

3 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

fine then -make framed holes how you like ,not sure why you don,t want to do it the block maker suggests--your way there is no insulation just open ended blocks you are making wooden frames to close up--your choice

 

Honestly John you're such an angry man - you remind me of my dad. Exactly why i want you on my team in the Annual BUild-Hub party bus punch up

 

The core of what i'm asking, is not to disregard block manufacturers recommendations, simply to try and understand the ease of a process and see if there are any other ways. If you read the original topic and subsequent comments again, you'll notice that my questions surround how to efficiently get a structure up and create openings. I haven't suggested at any point that I wouldn't want to insulate where there is a gap. I would - I just haven't been specific about how I would achieve that because it wasn't relevant to the information i wanted.

 

If we all just did things as instructed, this forum just wouldn't exist because the second someone suggested the internet as a thing, another person would have just said that Ceefax was fine as it was.

 

I'm having pulled brisket burgers and chips for teas tonight John - what about you? 

 

 

[ToughButterCup]

7 hours ago, Big Neil said:

[...]

would it be quick enough to just build the cube, mark out the position of door and maybe window externally, then just have at it with a saw or hot knife?

 

Yes,

Thats precisely what I will be doing (albeit at smaller scale) in a couple of weeks.

Using a concrete saw, chop out the windows and doors after  a reasonable interval. (2 weeks?). In our case we're chopping out a mis-placed window opening - moving it 300mm. 

 

Thinking a bit about your idea, if you were just a bit canny about it, and didn't mind non-standard size openings -in the case if Durisol- if you could cut a hole exactly in line with the joints in one layer, you'd only cut through half the amount of concrete (vertically) and small amounts laterally.

Further, if you were to plan the tops of your doors and windows and drop rebar in one layer above, say two hefty bits per window and a bit more on a door - you'd be laughing!

 

It would be interesting to do a roof in Durisol. Turn the blocks on their side, chop out the insulation, chop one side off and lay them as a set of soldier courses, laced  up with rebar. 

 

Got me thinking now......?

 

 

[Russell griffiths]

IMHO 

silly idea

how will you install cavity closers ?

you will end up with lots of 400-500mm long bits, what you going to do with these. 

 

A lad near near me has just done a nudura house with literally no wastage ( I have tons of it ) 

his answer was to adjust all sizing to block sizes

so in effect a window must be either 1-2-3-4-5-6 courses high so a lintel sits on a course, as well as the window cill height 1-2-3 blocks from the footing, doors set 1block up from the footing, 

its very doable, it just didn’t fit my design 

i should have laid another block all around my footing to save 2 days of cutting the icf to get the correct ffh 

 

but you could procrastinate about this for months. 

1 course of extra blocks for me would have been about 160 blocks, so buy them and lay them would be £500 

or you chop up some polystyrene for a couple of days

unless you have costed this to the nearest grand I think it would be hard to pick between the two. 

 

 

Now my angry bit. 

How many icf houses have you been and viewed whilst being built ?

how many pours have you been to and watched. 

I think the best way to get a grip of this is to get hands on and touch some blocks. 

 

I viewed 4 houses mid construction, and went to two pours. 

I then chose the product I liked

it happened to be the dearest of all 3 quotes I got. 

[scottishjohn]

2 hours ago, Big Neil said:

 

Honestly John you're such an angry man - you remind me of my dad. Exactly why i want you on my team in the Annual BUild-Hub party bus punch up

 

The core of what i'm asking, is not to disregard block manufacturers recommendations, simply to try and understand the ease of a process and see if there are any other ways. If you read the original topic and subsequent comments again, you'll notice that my questions surround how to efficiently get a structure up and create openings. I haven't suggested at any point that I wouldn't want to insulate where there is a gap. I would - I just haven't been specific about how I would achieve that because it wasn't relevant to the information i wanted.

 

If we all just did things as instructed, this forum just wouldn't exist because the second someone suggested the internet as a thing, another person would have just said that Ceefax was fine as it was.

 

I'm having pulled brisket burgers and chips for teas tonight John - what about you? 

 

 

  LO

ok  mr angry says

how you going to get the correct overlap of block joins to keep it stable  if you just hit it with the chain saw to make a hole 

 

there is bound to funny little bits which will take so much bracing to keep them in place that   

I cannot see how it will be any quicker than erecting it  the way it was designed to be done 

 

 

 

 

[Alexphd1]

You could put up the ICF with no Windows or doors, pour the concrete then cut out openings with one of those concrete chainsaws.... 

TBH I dont see what you will gain apart from bracing lintels !

 

If you are serious about ICF get on to one of their training courses or get out and visit other builds, you learn more in half a morning on site esp a pour day than spending days scheming up ideas such as playing with toy icf blocks.

 

Where exactly are you located, see if we can't find you a project to visit.

[ToughButterCup]

11 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

[...]

how you going to get the correct overlap of block joins to keep it stable  if you just hit it with the chain saw to make a hole 

[...]

 

21 hours ago, Big Neil said:

[...]

if all you were building were a 8X8X8 cube

[...]

Build first - an exact number of blocks wide and high: no gaps for windows or doors. Might not be exactly 8 by 8, but it'd only be a few mm out....Then:

Cut the gaps out with a concrete chain saw.

 

Easy -

(says the guy who doesn't even know which way round an insulation washer should be fitted ? )

[Big Neil]

14 hours ago, recoveringacademic said:

Yes,

Thats precisely what I will be doing (albeit at smaller scale) in a couple of weeks.

Using a concrete saw, chop out the windows and doors after  a reasonable interval. (2 weeks?). In our case we're chopping out a mis-placed window opening - moving it 300mm. 

 

Thinking a bit about your idea, if you were just a bit canny about it, and didn't mind non-standard size openings -in the case if Durisol- if you could cut a hole exactly in line with the joints in one layer, you'd only cut through half the amount of concrete (vertically) and small amounts laterally.

Further, if you were to plan the tops of your doors and windows and drop rebar in one layer above, say two hefty bits per window and a bit more on a door - you'd be laughing!

 

Although not exactly what I had in mind it's interesting to see that someone is having to work a variation of what i was thinking about. Throw a go pro on while you're doing it chap so we can see how it goes.

 

12 hours ago, Alexphd1 said:

Where exactly are you located, see if we can't find you a project to visit.

 

Currently Manchester. I've been to see one in Gatley which was on pour day albeit i arrive don site about 30 minutes after the last lorry lad left. I'm waiting to hear from thermohouse if they have one anywhere i can see. Going to a home build show next week where i intend to speak with Nudura who I know are there, plus then if he is still in need of any help i will get to see Russel's in May. Can't seem to get hold of Alan at Polarwall at the moment but had been trying to find out when i could visit a project somewhere near Preston. If anyone knows of one near me though i'd be excited to bob along to any.

 

13 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

e correct overlap of block joins

 

I hadn't considered this actually, and exactly the sort of thing i was hoping to be pointed out. I guess you can't - fair point.

13 hours ago, scottishjohn said:

there is bound to funny little bits which will take so much bracing to keep them in place

 

Again - fair point, something else that seems obvious now but wasn't clear when I was thinking about it to start with

13 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

how will you install cavity closers ?

 

My initial thought was to dry fit  something a bit like the fox buck that fox blocks have, or jackon are just developing what amounts to a slips to close cavities (basically just a 700 kpa strip of XPS), and then support them as i see most people doing, with wooden bracing at the windows and doors.

 

13 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

his answer was to adjust all sizing to block sizes

so in effect a window must be either 1-2-3-4-5-6 courses high so a lintel sits on a course, as well as the window cill height 1-2-3 blocks from the footing, doors set 1block up from the footing, 

 

See i think this is an interesting idea - logical. I shall explore it more.

 

 

Just to pass further comment i know the way I ask questions might seem strange, but it's really just down to the way i learn. So if i ask you could use a steak knife to cut rockwool slabs with for example, it's just because i've found a parallel and want to understand (aside from the blindingly obvious), the reasons behind this.

 

 

[Sue B]

The block size thing is causing me concern at the moment.  The architects are coming round next week and we won’t know which system our build is at that point.  I want the design based on the block size.  I am thinking:

1) get the plans drawn up roughly the right size.

2) get the prices in for two systems we are considering based on those plans

3) adjust plans to fit system chosen

4) apply for planning permission

 

[Big Neil]

12 hours ago, Sue B said:

1) get the plans drawn up roughly the right size.

2) get the prices in for two systems we are considering based on those plans

3) adjust plans to fit system chosen

4) apply for planning permission

 

See that seems like a reasonable idea to me - Possibly I would get the block dimensions in hand first, including data like web spacing, then get those varied onto the plans you already have before passing them on to each manufacturer.

 

Have you any particular manufacturers in mind as it stands, even though you might not have decided thus far?

[Sue B]

We are considering Durisol and Isotex.  We like Velox but it is simply too heavy for us to manage.  We are building as much as possible ourselves and both of us are getting

on a bit ?.  

We have been on the Durisol training day and due to go on the Isotex training day next week.  We have requested visits on pour days for both systems from the sales guys and it looks like both have first pours later this month fairly local to us.  

I have started a blog on here, the first thread of which is all about choosing which ICF we are going for.

[Big Neil]

@Sue B i shall read while i have my takeaway later with interest. I'd ask you why you might be poly-phobic but that would ruin the surprise.