UFH spare run to non-existent room - and cooling?

[readiescards]

Eventually I might add a conservatory/garden room to my new build dwelling.

 

How can I pre-plumb my UFH circuits so that it is simple to get the UFH into this new area without digging up the floor all the way back to the manifold which will probably be the otherside the house?

 

And related: if I were to put UFH pipework in an outdoor patio area (which could become the floor of the future conservatory) would I be able to:

1. 100% isolate the patio UFH pipework so that it does not lose heat in the winter (before conservatory built)

2. to use the patio UFH to dump any unwanted heat from the remaining UFH circuit to help cool the house (before conservatory built)

 

Thanks

[Onoff]

You just run ducting (and a draw string(s) if I were you) from the manifold stopping adjacent to where your new room will / may be. This is what I'm doing.....Nick said.....he is a God! 

 

1&2 - Wait for Nick!

[Nickfromwales]

 no pressure lol. 

If the manifold is the other side of the house then the pipe runs may be too long to do it that way. You might have to run flow and return pipe work now in anticipation of fitting a dedicated manifold for the new room. What size would the room be? Probably looking at two loops for that room as it'll have quite high heat loss during the winter / bitter parts of the year. 

If you had say 2x 70m loops ( pipe at 100-120mm centres ) then you'd have 15m of tail. Would that get you to the proposed main Ufh manifold? 

Also, if you can get to the manifold without exceeding 100m pipe loops, don't forget to run cables for the thermostat in that room as it'll need to be stand alone from the rest of the house. 

Point 1) yes

Point 2) pointless endeavour . 

[Nickfromwales]

Also any water in there, whilst exposed to the elements, will need to contain anti-freeze. That means the entire volume of primary heating water would have to be treated. 

[readiescards]

No idea how big garden room would be - not sure if there will be any money spare for some time!

15m tails might just reach manifold.

 

I think laying a pair of supply and return pipes that are looped back near the potential room connecting wall is best - so a connection can be can cut into them at a later date (I'll at least know the location of any potential leaks that way).

 

Question is it possible to insulate the UFH pipework in the screed - so that I can run it this long distance without it losing heat before reaching the future room? Also means I can run it under the kitchen cupboards without heating up my pots and pans or sending food off.

 

 

 

[PeterW]

16 minutes ago, readiescards said:

No idea how big garden room would be - not sure if there will be any money spare for some time!

15m tails might just reach manifold.

 

I think laying a pair of supply and return pipes that are looped back near the potential room connecting wall is best - so a connection can be can cut into them at a later date (I'll at least know the location of any potential leaks that way).

 

Question is it possible to insulate the UFH pipework in the screed - so that I can run it this long distance without it losing heat before reaching the future room? Also means I can run it under the kitchen cupboards without heating up my pots and pans or sending food off.

 

 

 

 

There isn't enough heat from a pair of 15mm pipes to heat the air gap under a cupboard - you need much more than that. You can insulate the pipes but it becomes counter productive as they wont benefit from the warmth of the slab when they are in use. 

 

Can you identify where a potential secondary manifold may go and run pipes to that point ..? That may help you better then you can run the outer room off a different controller potentially

[Ferdinand]

We were in this position two years ago, as the person who renovated had run out of the possibility of recovering his investment, and left the conservatory unbuilt with a ufh pipe termination.

For some reason it proved impossible to connect, and I can't remember why. Will try and check later.

 

In practice we deliberately went for higher spec options in the conservatory (eg top grade DG), and the supplier included 100mm of celotex rather than 50mm in the walls and floor at no extra charge, and we went with one side wall having clerestory windows.

 

We installed an underfloor electrical system from Screwfix just in case, but have hardly ever used it, and find that opening the double doors from the kitchen or lounge is more than acceptable. We have only ever used it to heat the downstairs while the boiler was broken.

 

Our conservatory is roughly 4mx4m and North facing.

 

So perhaps planning for a carefully specced conservatory instead may "Occam" your problem, though buyers will probably want a comforter.

 

If you go ufh give some thought to future supply of fittings.

 

Ferdinand

Edited August 19, 2016 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

On 16 August 2016 at 11:50, readiescards said:

Eventually I might add a conservatory/garden room to my new build dwelling.

 

How can I pre-plumb my UFH circuits so that it is simple to get the UFH into this new area without digging up the floor all the way back to the manifold which will probably be the otherside the house?

 

And related: if I were to put UFH pipework in an outdoor patio area (which could become the floor of the future conservatory) would I be able to:

1. 100% isolate the patio UFH pipework so that it does not lose heat in the winter (before conservatory built)

2. to use the patio UFH to dump any unwanted heat from the remaining UFH circuit to help cool the house (before conservatory built)

 

Thanks

 

Further comment.

 

If you put your pipe work in the patio now, you will have to spec the slab to be conservatory-suitable and insulated, as you will not be able to add anything under the pipe work later.

 

That may limit your conservatory options - dwarf walls need nearly normal foundations etc, and digging those round an existing floor is fiddly though possible. A slightly thicker slab and full height panels may be preferable.

 

That may all be doable if you plan ahead, but think through the whole process and do a full cost model as if you were building the conservatory now.

 

Further options could be a full sun lounge with a real roof, or a Crocodile style enclosed veranda with sliding glass wall(s) and a patio heater setup when needed, but there are imho better suppliers out there. You want to pay for your your house not other people's TV adverts.

 

Perhaps the thing to focus on is your intended use ... Full room implies sun lounge or good spec conservatory, dog pod or plant winter space implies something cooler that could be less heavily protected and outside the thermal envelope.

 

If you want 4 season use and it gets sun then you something radical in the roof to protect it in summer, or you may roast your occupants.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

On 19 August 2016 at 07:34, PeterW said:

You can insulate the pipes but it becomes counter productive as they wont benefit from the warmth of the slab when they are in use. 

If they run their own path eg away from the nearest Ufh pipes then they won't benefit from any warmth, they'll be providing it.  

Thats will dissipate heat from them before its reached the zone it's meant to be heating, so I say super insulate any transitional pipe work so the heat only goes where you want it.

A sun room or conservatory will be quite dissimilar to the main house in terms of climate / heating patterns, eg the sunroom heating may be running longer into the evening whilst the house is satisfied, and may not be required in the morning / midday when the sun is warming / overheating it.

Therefore there is a good chance that the slab these pipes traverse through may not be 'warm' when the sunroom is calling for heat, IMO reinforcing the need to insulate them accordingly. 

As you can't increase the flow temp for a single zone ( when sharing a manifold ) you will probably benefit from pulling the pipe in at smaller centres so you slightly increase the W/m2. Having its own manifold would allow you to have control of the flow temp but there's only so much higher you can go so I'd strive to connect to the main manifold and ensure the produced heat is delivered to that area, at as close to the temp it was generated at as possible, and flood that area with extra pipe. 

 

[readiescards]

Next question. How to insulate ufh pipe?

 

Though opening the door to the heated space does seem quite a cheap option that might just do for all but winter!

[PeterW]

If this is for a conservatory or orangery type room, cooling rather than heating may be your issue and if it's not an integral part of the build now have you considered something like an air/air heat pump ..?? Cheap and effective and gives cooling as well as heating. 

 

Are you talking about insulating loop circuits or insulating a new supply feed and return to a separate manifold if you go down that route ..?? 

[Nickfromwales]

Plus 1 on air con, but only if you have doors between it and the main house. I'd do that in a heartbeat. The cost of daytime cooling would hopefully be offset with PV, but would be thirsty of an evening and may require more electricity than you have spare ( as you'll be off grid ). 

[readiescards]

Luckily this new room will be NE facing so should benefit from morning sun to warm it up, while being shaded to prevent over heating in afternoon/evening.

 

So after reading all the comments, the conclusion is I'll just ensure there is plenty of electrical connections available at ground floor and light height for now.

 

BuildHub saving me cash again - thanks all :-)

[Nickfromwales]

[Ferdinand]

1 hour ago, readiescards said:

Luckily this new room will be NE facing so should benefit from morning sun to warm it up, while being shaded to prevent over heating in afternoon/evening.

 

So after reading all the comments, the conclusion is I'll just ensure there is plenty of electrical connections available at ground floor and light height for now.

 

BuildHub saving me cash again - thanks all :-)

 

Sounds  good. N-E is a good angle for a conservatory.

 

Other points:

 

1 - Put a couple of underfloor ducts in to likely points in case you want wiring in future - eg if you are going to want a run for an outside wall socket at the far side in the future.

 

I used this:

http://www.screwfix.com/p/tower-corrugated-conduit-white-20mm-x-10m/38177

 

2 - I put a 300x300 underfloor space into a corner of mine, which I used to hide the gubbins to drive the electric ufh, with a loose tile on top.

 

3 - Electric sockets at head height are surprisingly useful for eg televisions for extra wall lights etc. One of my recent 2 conservatories had these especially for the tenant to warm her puppies from ir lights.

 

4 - I think I might suggest, though it easy to add later, putting in a Switched Connection Box spur now, in case there is anything in future you may need to hard wire in.

 

5 - My top tip for inexpensive conservatories if you are so inclined is to take advantage of the silly people who put them on the wrong side and are replacing them with real rooms 5-10 years later. Ebay has a lot of decent secondhand conservatories for a few hundred or a couple of thousand, and there are companies that will collect it and install it for you for perhaps £3000-4000. That is cheap enough to throw away after 7-8 years use if you get a posh one new.

 

See:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&LH_Auction=1&_nkw=conservatory&_pgn=2&_skc=50&rt=nc

 

eg 20 x 10 ft but this one is dismantled so caution is warranted. You need to decide whether you trust the seller.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Conservatory-UPVC-/222225971804?hash=item33bdb33a5c:g:ImcAAOSwbsBXlm0j

 

The keys are to take your time and wait for the right one, then go and look at it first and make sure it is a good one.

 

I bought a 4mx6m conservatory - full height upvc type not dwarf wall - for £600, and installed it on a proper slab with a solid roof replacing the polycarb roof, insulated below, above and to windowsill height with 70mm celotex, and full electrics, and a radiator, to give a 4 season sunroom at about £270-280 per sqm all in except for my time. 

 

Ferdinand

 

 

Edited August 23, 2016 by Ferdinand

[Nickfromwales]

15 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

especially for the tenant to warm her puppies from ir lights.

[Ferdinand]

27 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Wash your mind out with soap, Mister Sir 

[Nickfromwales]

I'm easily led  

[Ferdinand]

41 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

I'm easily led  

This T would set her 6 dogs on you for that !