Ugly house re-design

[Lift span]

I like yours very much, ultramods, nice clean lines. 

 

As others have said I'd like to keep it simple but at the same time make it stand out. I have it sticking out from the front of the house so you can step into the hallway before having to go down the 5 or 6 steps to the lower level.

 

I've cleaned the windows up a bit below:

 

 

 

[jack]

I hope you don't mind me being honest, but I think it's getting worse rather than better. This looks like three or four houses chopped up and put back together 

 

One thing that this revision emphasises is the fact that on the right, the upper storey overhangs, but on the left it's set back. Then the front bit is completely different in style but partly merges in due to the roofline.

 

At the moment, there are random planes at all sorts of depths in the front elevation. Try to think of the design in terms of intersecting volumes - that might help resolve things.

[Lift span]

On the contrary Jack it's honesty I'm after!

I'll have a re-think!

[ultramods]

Have you already done lots of research for atrium ideas on google image search, Houzz, Pinterest etc?

[newhome]

I think it lacks balance, like the front entrance has been tacked on the front as an afterthought. Could you do something to bring out the whole of the left hand side? Something like this? Not with the garage clearly. 

 

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[Mr Punter]

Looking at the house, when you saw it, it probably represented good value. The reason for this is not only the lack of kerb appeal and the condition, but also the compromised internal space.

 

If you are going to throw some money at this, consider your budget and what you want to achieve. I don't think that the front porch works alone will add much value over what may be gained with some inexpensive external decoration / landscaping / driveway works.

 

The kitchen seems to be on the ground floor - about the same level as the external ground. I would expect to enter through the front door into a hall and have a door into the kitchen without going up / down stairs. I would also expect a WC on this level. Is this the case with your proposal?

[Ferdinand]

19 hours ago, the_r_sole said:

What direction are you approaching this from? Just as per the photo?

If it was me I'd look at simplifying the existing openings and cladding then do a contrasting entrance piece...

It depends what the overall style you are going for is, at the moment it doesn't look like there's an overall aesthetic

 

+1 to the @the_r_sole. I think you are working your way through possibilities, and you will suddenly or eventually come up with something that will work for you - hopefully in cahoots with your architect who will smooth the rough corners.

 

Let me chuck in another idea: of the 2 halves, the RHS is far more self-consistent. The LHS, especially with that 'sidecap' dormer window, looks rather incoherent to me. I admit the window on the left window makes me think of Esther Rantzen. I think that the dormer is out of style, and also rather small compared to what it could be. I am not sure about that high blank wall that is in several of your piccies on the LHS.

 

I think the LHS needs a contrasting-to-the-RHS face transplant, and then something that links the two.

 

One way if you think like that is to draw 10 different thumbnails in 15s each showing different things you can do with it; or get artistic friends to sketch some out. You can actually be very bold with these things if you have a clear idea - if only as another way of exploring your boundaries.

 

Here is what was done to a couple of estate houses in my area decades ago - they have managed to make them look entirely different. Respectful but innovative - like yours they have become houses of two halves. Here is an estate house:

 

 

Here is how one person extended it:

 

 

And here is what another person did:

 

 

 

The extension to the second one was designed by my dad in the late 70s. It has now been repurposed to be white, but the bay was actually alu looking like fins and designed to stand out plus draw the eye away from the Estate-House core. From outside it reads like a staircase, but was actually a study downstairs and master suite upstairs (ie extra bedroom at the back plus a dressing room and bathroom). Not absolutely sure he did the bit at the back with the clumsy pitch change in the roof.

 

If you blank out the Estate House, you can see how the new extensions have been linked in by some elements (eg the buff bricks, pantiles, angle of roof on the second), but also redefine the face for the house (face on roof on the left, modern element, redefining the roofline on the second).

 

Streetview link. You want 79 Huthwaite Rd, NG17.

 

For yours, you could eg take a large bay window on the left all the way right above the roof, or something similar that runs into a flat roofed atrium. Spend half a day on a pushbike on an old estate made good, with a camera, and see what people have done.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited January 29, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Lift span]

Thanks all for the responses it's all great stuff!

 

Ultramods, yes, we have trawled through Pinterest etc to look for ideas.

 

The-r-sole,  yes the right hand side used to be a garage. It's now a home office on the right and a bathroom on the left half. The bathroom is too big and doesn't get used much. The existing entrance way is 2.1m wide internally.

 

As Mr Punter said, the kitchen is at entrance ground level and I too would expect to stay on the same level to get to it. Maybe I could use some of that bathroom? But yes, still need a WC on the ground floor.

 

Newhome, yes, it definitely lacks balance. With an unlimited budget I think I would completely redesign the left hand side but that's not going to happen!  I'll have a look at other options for the dormer to try and balance things.

 

Ferdinand, will try your sketching idea. Yes, I get your left/right different but with something to link them. The question is what!  It's interesting to see those before and after shots. Especially like the detail in the roof work. Also, your bay window idea is one we did consider at one stage... maybe we will reconsider.

 

We have had two architects and a builder have a quick look but no inspiring ideas came out. But, as mentioned by a few of you they said it has to work from the inside out as well. I'll upload some floorplans.

 

Thanks again!

 

Edited January 29, 2019 by Lift span

[Ferdinand]

Do you actually need more space or spaces?

 

How will you want to use them in the done-over house? What about in terms of integrated spaces or separated spaces?

 

How many bedrooms do you actually want .. currently you have up to 5. ANd how many studies / offices, and what else? Can we have a List?

 

ISTM that the core of your house revolves around a kitchen space and two living areas. How do you use them? E.g. Are they both spaces for visitors (where do friends get taken? Acquaintances?). IS there a children/adult division, or  daytime / evening, or clean / messy, or relaxing / chores, or what?

 

One issue is that two of your three most used spaces  face overwhelmingly North. How the sun gets through and into the house, and how you manage that, will be key. It is tempting to think about the atrium extending to include the current staircase, so that the whole interior is opened up a little more, with a big skylight at the top.

 

It is also tempting to think about extending the atrium inwards not outwards, so as to avoid any need for a new sticky-out erection. Then you could focus on a different surface / aesthetic treatment for the LHS including a 2 storey bay with a vertical emphasis, and an adjustment of rooms inside .. including doing something with the bed 4 to give south light in both living spaces from the new bay.

 

What is the structure around the Steam Room. IS it feasible to just take that away and leave a double height hall where it was? Or would that require mayor structural buggeration?

 

JUst how tight is the budget? E.g. ballpark 25k, or 75k, or 125k, or more? Can you afford a new facade on the left, or are we limited to eg new finishes plus a small amount of structure? DO you want a new kitchen out of this, or a bathroom, or just a new look from the outside?

 

How we'll insulated is it? ARe flowing, combined living spaces practical, or do we need to keep them separated for the sake of being able to heat room by room? CAn you post the EPC?

 

F  

Edited January 29, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Mr Punter]

The two sides of the house seem so disjointed that I would be tempted to split them into a pair of semis and either sell on or live in one half and rent the other.

[Lift span]

Split into two! That's certainly an option! But, there are lots of large 5 bed houses around here. We don't want to move any time soon and see this as an ongoing project. We don't need any more space, it's 2800 square feet and there are 2 adults, 2 children.  The loft conversion may never happen for us but I'd like to design the potential into it rather than having to rethink in the future. 

 

Ferdinand, you have hit the nail on the head. The main reason for the new entrance/atrium is to allow light to transfer from front to back and through the house. All the spaces work well for us apart from the downstairs bathroom which could go and we could put  a WC into the office.

 

I don't want to go down the combined living space route. I did up our last place that way and it worked well but it was much smaller. It's just not needed here I think. The main issue is the light. 

 

There is no structure around the steam room - above that is the old entrance hallway so just ceiling and floor joists etc.. The house was built bespoke by a previous owner and had a sauna in there ... it's gone now.The EPC survey gave an E. It assumed no cavity wall insulation, but it actually does have. We've since replaced the boiler, fitted LED's and it's more like a B/C now I expect.

 

Budget? I had estimates for the front entrance  windows of 10-15k. I thought about the same again for the structural work. I'm very hands on with these things and did most of the work on my last place myself.  If a new facade was required on the left I could budget for that. I have 100k to spend at the moment. I have a list of things we'd like in this order: Front sorted, rear extension to kitchen with large sliding windows, new garage, loft conversion. I'd do all internal fittings myself.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Lift span

[Ferdinand]

@Lift span, TWo more substantive posts to make on this, since I have been musing.

 

This is several possible treatments around turning the Rantzen window into a two storey window with a vertical emphasis, and a flush entrance. Based on your statement that the house is big enough already I do not see the need for more space without a specific purpose, and we do not have an incontestable requirement. Yet.

 

The entrance is patterned mainly to link it to the LHS via similarity to the windows, and the half and half division is treated as the line where the roofs meet. PErhaps your future roof room would be best in the bedroom wing, as it has NS facing gables for windows ..

 easier for PP at the front, as you could then have side facing obscured roof lights.

 

 Changing the existing without major building works will help the cost equation.

 

I have not fully resolved the levels at the entrance, but I am tempted to treat the entrance at GF level, and the downstairs sitting room as a separate living area, and you go upstairs to the kitchen/dining sitting room which together count as your split level kitchen diner living space. THat can be changed by adjusting the entrance, but I think a single core set of stairs is much tidier and less discombobulating.

 

I have not addressed external finishes.

 

Here is your house in case anyone wants to play:

 

 

TWo storey bay window under gutter.

 

 

TWo storey bay proud of and slightly cut into roof.

 

 

FLat window under gutter with S facing veranda with roof to help manage solar gain.

 

 

 

I would personally go for that flat window one, as really major work is minimised and it is simplest, and it can be multistaged. A balcony above the veranda would be OK as S facing, or a 2 storey veranda if you want a dual purpose solar gain management idea which does something for you as well as for the heat.

 

Ferdinand

Edited January 30, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Lift span]

Wow, thanks Ferdinand!

 

There is some extra information I need to give you best seen in some photos. There is a big trench at the front which was full of earth and causing damp issues. I’m going to build a new retaining wall in a similar position to the new one and that needs to be incorporated into the design.

 

 

[jack]

41 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

@Lift span, TWo more substantive posts to make on this, since I have been musing.

 

This is several possible treatments around turning the Rantzen window into a two storey window with a vertical emphasis, and a flush entrance. Based on your statement that the house is big enough already I do not see the need for more space without a specific purpose, and we do not have an incontestable requirement. Yet.

 

The entrance is patterned mainly to link it to the LHS via similarity to the windows, and the half and half division is treated as the line where the roofs meet. PErhaps your future roof room would be best in the bedroom wing, as it has NS facing gables for windows ..

 easier for PP at the front, as you could then have side facing obscured roof lights.

 

 Changing the existing without major building works will help the cost equation.

 

I have not fully resolved the levels at the entrance, but I am tempted to treat the entrance at GF level, and the downstairs sitting room as a separate living area, and you go upstairs to the kitchen/dining sitting room which together count as your split level kitchen diner living space. THat can be changed by adjusting the entrance, but I think a single core set of stairs is much tidier and less discombobulating.

 

I have not addressed external finishes.

 

Here is your house in case anyone wants to play:

 

 

TWo storey bay window under gutter.

 

 

TWo storey bay proud of and slightly cut into roof.

 

 

FLat window under gutter with S facing veranda with roof to help manage solar gain.

 

 

 

I would personally go for that flat window one, as really major work is minimised and it is simplest, and it can be multistaged. A balcony above the veranda would be OK as S facing, or a 2 storey veranda if you want a dual purpose solar gain management idea which does something for you as well as for the heat.

 

Find me a better selfbuild forum on the web. I'll wait...

[Mr Punter]

I have just looked at this from plan view. The idea below has a 2.1m wide circulation space extending from front to back with double height voids either end. The front door has been moved down to the same level as the kitchen. Stairs moved. Please note the arrows on the stairs always point UP.

 

I haven't messed with the internal layout much.

 

[Ferdinand]

@Lift span

 

The retaining wall is probably for your architect and structural engineer, but there is nothing to stop you leaving that deep trench and spanning over the top to make a patio or veranda. YOu just need to make sure that the tench is drained well and accessible for maintenance. in pronciole you could just drain the bottom and fill it with gravel; if it moves just rake it flay or top it up.

 

Personally I would want to be able to get down in future here to see the condition of the house structure.

 

Here is my other comment ... one way of ordering the basic project.

 

1 - Resolve how you use the spaces.

 

Move the Bed 4 to where the study is. THat is to make the bedroom wing a bedroom wing, and clear the way for south light to come into the big living space. IN fact turn the current study and the underused bathroom, and perhaps part of the utility, into two bedrooms and an accessible shower room. Redo that maze of doors such that it is slightly separate and can be a 1 bed - living plus kitchenette - shower room compact grannexe with minimum adaptation for when you need one. that is a killer feature in a house this size.

 

2 Let the light in.

 

Have discussed this prev. DOuble height flush bay window to give 2nd or 3rd aspect to both living spaces, plus a pair of skylights above the new double height hall either side of the ridge, near where the stairs are. DOuble height entrance with lots of glazing, as discussed. YOu could put a complete band of roof windows in if you wanted.

 

You can play around with the height and how many panes in the double height window, but imo consider making some of the millions sufficient that you can put a smaller study in so that the stud wall does not show, and you get a nice tall window in the study.

 

Move the walls between hall and living spaces such that the entire stair is in the hall, lit from above by skylights. @Mr Punter's through hall may work with this, as stairs are off to the side.

 

3 - Resolve facade.

 

Have discussed. 

 

4 - Kitchen / dining.

 

To me that kitchen may be big enough, or may benefit from extension. COnsider later.

 

But that dining area looks like a long walk. WHy not have a thru cupboard with doors each side? it could be made to work for both living spaces from the kitchen. YOur fridge would need a new home.

 

5 - Living spaces.

 

Treat these as a free form zone, and put in stud or movable walls as required e.g. To give a small study whilst still letting light through from the south. THere are systems of movable walls available, or you can stud. THe customers tend to be leaseholders who do not want to get BFONTed (*) for charges for permission to make structural changes.

 

There could be an argument for opening up the ceiling of your upper living area to a cathedral ceiling, depending on the roof structure. PErhaps for a storage or sleeping mezzanine and some drama.

 

6. Manage heat.

 

Depends on handling of windows and entrance. BUt use your skylights for stack ventilation, and perhaps put auto or remote control on them.

 

7 Cladding / appearance.

 

IMO your looks could be either modern and sharp, or smartened up house with a nod to earliernstyles. THe latter is well embodied in eg smaller Lutyens or modern extensions to older buildings / small public buildings done from about 1900-1975. Go and find some ... they are everywhere e.g. In small extensions to ancient churches which are contemporary but subservient to the earlier building.

 

I think the cladding on the RHD in your design looks good. YOu could match it to e.g. A vertical cladding on the LHS, or a vertical band of horizontal cladding.

 

8 What I am trying to do here is to give a different view so you have good qs to ask your architect, and can be more equal in the dialogue.

 

WHen you have some good ideas, suggest getting a friend who can draw or paint to run up a couple of impresssions of what it may look like, based on a 3D view you print  out. Watercolours are ideal, and you can hang up all the versions afterwards. IT is a bit like the impressions they used to put on the end of Time Team. EXample:

 

 

Best of luck.

 

Ferdinand

 

* See Die Hard, 1988.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Lift span]

Mr Punter and Ferdinand I'm extremely grateful and I'm going through your posts in fine detail as there is so much great info there.

 

Mr Punter, I love your floor numbering system and lateral thinking!

 

Ferdinand, how about if the frontage comes out a little bit like below with a flat roof of some sort :

 

 

[Lift span]

Little bit higher?

 

Back to what Ultramods and Jack said at the beginning!

 

 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Lift span

[Ferdinand]

I think you now have one house, not two, in the looks, and it is a good stripped back basis to consider what you actually want to do. The facade is simple enough to be unified, and that dormer is now a unifying element as a subsidiary echo of the other one, even though I do not like it very much personally. IMO the cladding on the LHS would be better down to the plinth. 

 

I would now say park the exterior, and think about the inside and what you want / how you live, and how it relates to the surroundings and the back garden e.g. View axes and so on. E.g. Consider new windows, or moving existing ones.

 

I have already pointed out a dozen possibilities, but also consider your intentions for the windows, and think about the performance of the fabric. IMO it may well be worth a full new set of windows, and eg dark grey upvc might work well. THat means you can change their sizes and shapes.

 

Also consider how you will get light into all your shared spaces at different time of the day e.g. Put a tall narrow glass panel in the hall to the sitting rooms near the front will give you angled sunlight there early in the day.

 

(Update. That little bit higher change is a second level elaboration ... the thing you will want to play with once you have done your first lot of thinking about the interior. The exterior is at 70-80%. Leave it alone and think about the interior. Come back to it in 10 days when you have made some progress on the inside.

 

Ps IMO the central element wants to be at one height or the other, and not in the middle .. unless there is a necessary reason at the detailing stage ... at this stage it is just adding the Knick-knacks back on that you just got rid of to make it simpler. Do not pfaff about detail when there are still big things to work on like your interior and in-out relationships.)

 

F

Edited January 31, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

@Lift span

 

Just rewatched the very first episode of Ugly to Lively, and I think it has a lot of things relevan to your next thinking bit.

 

F

 

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/ugly-house-to-lovely-house-with-george-clarke/on-demand/59068-001

 

[Sjk]

Ill be really honest too, I dont think the design "flows" well enough for me.

[ultramods]

I thing the flat roof on the atrium looks better. I think you need to work on the other window positions, try and get them at similar heights (where possible). Also do you really need the random patio doors on the front of the house, looks a bit odd.

 

Also how about the dormer having a flat roof to match the atrium

 

[newhome]

Not read all of this thread but the proposed front entrance looks way better than the start when it looked liked a box shoved on as an afterthought. Still some things to do but on coming back in after a few days it has improved immeasurably IMO. 

[TFnovice]

This is a great project - quirky with opportunities for split level living which can work really well - very jealous!

 

I'm with Ferdinand on the fact that you need to be looking at the layout first.  What you've proposed is still a compromise and your budget would allow you to improve it hugely - the layout should dictate the entrance.

 

I think a split level house can be a real asset if it flows well inside.  That all depends on how you live as a family - decide what spaces do you need for living and sleeping then consider changing the use of some of the rooms - eg study/bathroom to become a guest bedroom suite as said above.

 

I would also say that the best split level houses tend not to have standard narrow stairs between levels but rather wider more open steps which stop it from feeling like you are constantly on the wrong level.  You want to keep the bedrooms separate but have the living areas flowing.