When do I hire these consultants?

[janelondon]

We're starting with concept designs and our architect has suggested hiring the following consultants at the outset:

- Structural engineer

- Services engineer

- QS

 

The one that I see as being possibly useful from the outset is the QS, as he can tell us based on the concept designs whether what we want to build is within the ballpark of affordability. Was thinking of having him do the initial costings and we will then take over the estimating when we go through design iterations (I bought a copy of SPONS). Am I thinking along the right lines?

 

When do we bring on the others - or do we need them at all?

 

P.S. The build will be fairly large as we have a house, cottage and detached garage.  Was thinking of using a timber frame kit supplier, but still open to other build methods. 

 

Thanks! 

[newhome]

What’s a services engineer? Is that the same as an M&E consultant? @vivienz has one of those but I don’t know when she engaged them initially. 

 

You would want an idea of the type of house you would like first I would have thought. 

[Nickfromwales]

Wont a TF kit supplier encompass the SE side on your behalf? Seems an odd statement to just get you to engage these professional so soon in the process. The QS I agree on, but I'd have thought you nedd to get a bit more ground covered with your architect first maybe? Do you have a draft design that you've settled on yet?

[newhome]

7 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Wont a TF kit supplier encompass the SE side on your behalf?

 

Mine engaged a SE to cover the timber frame but I had a separate one for the foundations etc. I dare say they could have done it all however. 

[Nickfromwales]

Depends if the TF company offers a turnkey solution.

[newhome]

4 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Depends if the TF company offers a turnkey solution.

 

Yes that’s true. Mine didn’t. Supply only. 

[janelondon]

Thanks all. The QS will only get formally involved after we have the concept design by presenting initial costings. 

 

I don't see the value of having the engineers without first making decisions on our build design/route (and as some have mentioned the TF company may also appoint their own structural engineer). And yup services engineer is m&e.

 

To be fair, I believe the architect is suggesting these additional consultants as we have specified an ambitious time frame and he wants to get everyone lined up early. 

[newhome]

2 minutes ago, janelondon said:

To be fair, I believe the architect is suggesting these additional consultants as we have specified an ambitious time frame and he wants to get everyone lined up early. 

 

Still think it's a bit too early nonetheless. I would want an architect who had some sort of knowledge of what was practical / cost effective and hopefully he's only wanting them lined up so that you can move ahead quickly. 

 

Wouldn't hurt to get some potential names lined up I guess. 

 

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[dpmiller]

why not use a standard detail for the footings and let the BCO agree to it?

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[dpmiller]

25 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

 

Risk.

 

When you are working with a tight timeline or tight budget you want to de-risk a project as early as possible, when we do a new house we always appoint a structural engineer, that way you have a paid consultant who knows the timeline, who will design the most appropriate foundation for the specific build on the specific site.

If you use a standard detail theres always a big risk that either it's not appropriate when you come to build by which time your kit is ordered and then you have to have a back and forth with building control to agree a new strategy - or the flip side is the detail you pick is completely over engineered and you spend thousands unnecessarily in the ground.

The other thing is that an engineer has pi cover whereas local authorities don't, and private bco's are a very mixed bag in usefulness

 Things  always seem different this side of the pond. Sure, our house was a pretty standard footprint, but my advice was to let the BCO be happy with the works "on the ground". Admittedly we did dig four test pits on the site pre-purchase so maybe that's the de-risking, but also I know that our neighbours went from scraping off topsoil to find stone at one end of their founds, to going down 16' and the BCO telling them to give up at that point and fill it all in with concrete...

Now things are a bit different here because we ONLY have Council BCOs, but they do seem to know their own patch. We did a standard blockwork dig- down to firm ground and then pour 12"+ to level, add mesh where the BCO queried the base of the dig. Not terribly excessive and no expense in consultants.

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[vivienz]

I guess the order will vary from build to build as to what's the 'best' order, but this is how it happened for mine:

 

1. Engaged and commissioned architect with a relatively detailed brief of how we wanted the house to function for us.

2. Whilst waiting for PP: decided what type of build we wanted, researched TF and slab main contractors, decided on main contractor (subject to satisfactory quote)

3. Immediately after PP, engaged TF/slab main contractor and M&E consultant. 

4. Commissioned architect to do building regs drawings.

5. Architect, TF/slab supplier and M&E consultant worked together to make sure that the house could be built as conceived and that the systems would go into the building.  Thinking here about ensuring space for plant and equipment early on and things like penetrations through steel beams where MVHR ducts would need to run.

6. Had a soil survey done, indentified need for piles on site due to clay.

7. Engaged SE for piles but didn't use their advice in the end, for 2 reasons.  Their initial proposed solution was too expensive and, in the end, the piling company had their own SE who did the calculations and liaised with the TF/slab provider.

8. It's also worth bringing in your window supplier early on - we needed to form recesses in the concrete slab so that when the lift and slide doors went in we could get close to a level threshold.

 

 

[Cheib]

On 17/01/2019 at 07:15, vivienz said:

I guess the order will vary from build to build as to what's the 'best' order, but this is how it happened for mine:

 

1. Engaged and commissioned architect with a relatively detailed brief of how we wanted the house to function for us.

2. Whilst waiting for PP: decided what type of build we wanted, researched TF and slab main contractors, decided on main contractor (subject to satisfactory quote)

3. Immediately after PP, engaged TF/slab main contractor and M&E consultant. 

4. Commissioned architect to do building regs drawings.

5. Architect, TF/slab supplier and M&E consultant worked together to make sure that the house could be built as conceived and that the systems would go into the building.  Thinking here about ensuring space for plant and equipment early on and things like penetrations through steel beams where MVHR ducts would need to run.

6. Had a soil survey done, indentified need for piles on site due to clay.

7. Engaged SE for piles but didn't use their advice in the end, for 2 reasons.  Their initial proposed solution was too expensive and, in the end, the piling company had their own SE who did the calculations and liaised with the TF/slab provider.

8. It's also worth bringing in your window supplier early on - we needed to form recesses in the concrete slab so that when the lift and slide doors went in we could get close to a level threshold.

 

 

That sounds logical but at what point did you know/estimate what the build cost would be ? Was it at Stage 1 based on a ball park estimate of price per sq ft/m or at Stage 2 ?  I ask because obviously at Stage 2 you’ve already got PP so are somewhat “pregnant” at this stage and would presumably have to go back to plann8ng if you had to change the design because quotes were coming in high ? 

 

Asking as somone who is at Stage 1! 

[vivienz]

8 hours ago, Cheib said:

That sounds logical but at what point did you know/estimate what the build cost would be ? Was it at Stage 1 based on a ball park estimate of price per sq ft/m or at Stage 2 ?  I ask because obviously at Stage 2 you’ve already got PP so are somewhat “pregnant” at this stage and would presumably have to go back to plann8ng if you had to change the design because quotes were coming in high ? 

 

Asking as somone who is at Stage 1! 

 

You can estimate the cost at any time but you will never truly know the cost until it's been built. Or at least, that's my experience.

 

We knew what our budget was at the outset and told the architect this at the beginning. It's hard to get firm ideas of how much things will cost until you have a set of plans because it's really difficult to get quotes without them from suppliers - they need dimensions to provide anything meaningful.

 

I understand how frustrating/worrying it can be to not know full costs at the outset but you really need your design first and then go through an incremental process of tweaking things throughout the process, both design and build, to fit your budget. Having some flexibility on costs built in to that process helps enormously.

[mvincentd]

As Vivienz said it'll vary from build to build, but taking your statement 'starting with concept designs' it sounds too early for anything other than you, a pencil and the back of an envelope.

On what basis have you chosen an architect if you don't know what kind of aesthetic you want, ...what build system will that suit and what SE requirement will that bring about, then what Q of what will a QS S?

Sorry to sound a bit challenging but i'm rather wary of your architects opening gambit and i'm concerned you're about to get fleeced.

[recoveringbuilder]

Our architect had a build cost worked out right from the get go, don’t know if it’s different elsewhere but he needed to do this as the building warrant cost is calculated on the cost of the build, so he could give us a ballpark figure as soon as he had the initial drawings done, before it went into planning and I have to say he wasn’t a million miles away other than us upgrading things.The SE was engaged right away so that we could apply for building warrant as soon as planning was passed and he would have everything ready.as for a QS our son in law is one but we never felt the need for his services as we were quite happy working things out ourselves with a bit of input from builders and we don’t have anything left over other than plumbing materials as we left it to the plumber to calculate and he was an ass where calculations were concerned!

[newhome]

1 hour ago, Christine Walker said:

 he needed to do this as the building warrant cost is calculated on the cost of the build

 

I hate the way they do this in Scotland. My extension had a retrospective building warrant due to a weird process issue I won’t bore people with. That meant that I had completed the work already when the building warrant was applied for and knew exactly how much it cost. I applied for it on that basis but was told that they didn’t accept the cost and charged me more for the building warrant than the value of the work. When I tried to reason with them I was told that they had a calculator based on size and that was that. My extension consisted of just a single new wall and roof as 3 existing walls made up the rest and it used existing openings (as it was all designed to be added once the main house was built). Clearly that’s a lot cheaper than building something the same size that needs 3 walls but it’s one size fits all according to the council. 

[scottishjohn]

10 minutes ago, newhome said:

 

I hate the way they do this in Scotland. My extension had a retrospective building warrant due to a weird process issue I won’t bore people with. That meant that I had completed the work already when the building warrant was applied for and knew exactly how much it cost. I applied for it on that basis but was told that they didn’t accept the cost and charged me more for the building warrant than the value of the work. When I tried to reason with them I was told that they had a calculator based on size and that was that. My extension consisted of just a single new wall and roof as 3 existing walls made up the rest and it used existing openings (as it was all designed to be added once the main house was built). Clearly that’s a lot cheaper than building something the same size that needs 3 walls but it’s one size fits all according to the council. 

easy to see what happened there 

you built it --then you found you should have got a building warrant FIRST

you can do virtually no improvements to a house in scotland without BW permit outside the PD scope 

so they made you jump through the hoops 

they could have made you flatten it --

just do it the right way next time 

[scottishjohn]

sounds like you need a better architect .

unless you really trying to  do a grand designs  build 

 

any good one will have a damned  good idea of what is required and ball park costings

only once design is finalised would there be the need for final detailing of certain things  by structural engineer 

how much a sqm you allowed for  £1500  -£2000 --

that will give the architect a clue on what he can do 

[newhome]

33 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

easy to see what happened there 

you built it --then you found you should have got a building warrant FIRST

you can do virtually no improvements to a house in scotland without BW permit outside the PD scope 

so they made you jump through the hoops 

they could have made you flatten it --

just do it the right way next time 

 

That’s pretty abrasive given that you don’t know any of the background! I am not an idiot, I am fully aware that you need a building warrant. I did have a building warrant and the council wanted it on the original one as an amendment but ran into a process issue with the SER certificate because the original SE left the scheme and disappeared off the face of the earth. Council wanted a new form Q to cover the entire building warrant scope including next door that had been occupied for several years. The new SE wouldn’t agree to cover the whole development due to liability issues (plus he wanted to dig up next door!) so there was a stand off between the SE and the council. Eventually the council suggested that it could be a new and separate building warrant as a compromise that got round the need for a new form Q. 

 

My point is the same however. I knew what it cost to build and the council didn’t accept that I could build it for that. 

[the_r_sole]

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Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[janelondon]

Thanks for all the comments. We have given our architect a build cost to work with, and our QS will cost up estimates of the different concept designs that our architect comes up with.

 

Speaking to a couple of engineers on a no-obligations basis to get them lined up / familiarised with what our aspirations are (& get some early input where possible), so that they will be primed to do the detail work once we're settled on a concept design that can be developed in detail.