vivienz Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Apologies, I posted on @Big Neil's thread in energy storage but I think this query is more appropriate here. I'm going to place an order for my batteries very soon but want to be absolutely certain that I can claim back the VAT in due course, along with everything else that's going into the building. I'm going to order them myself rather than source them via my PV supplier as that system has already been installed and paid for. Can anyone point me in the direction of the section of the VAT reclaim regs that confirms that I can do this? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Neil Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Not a problem - Equally happy to have the answer there. A couple of suppliers told me the VAT was rated at 5% if fitted prior to building completion but not as part of a PV package. Not read the rules yet though, so this could be nul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivienz Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 Can you post a link to the relevant part of the rules, please, Neil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 53 minutes ago, Big Neil said: Not a problem - Equally happy to have the answer there. A couple of suppliers told me the VAT was rated at 5% if fitted prior to building completion but not as part of a PV package. Not read the rules yet though, so this could be nul. I don't think that's right TBH. For a new build it should be 20% VAT if supply only and 0% if supply and fit. The 5% rate applies to fitting eliglble energy saving products to any dwelling, or supply and fit in general for eligible renovations / conversions afaik. 46 minutes ago, vivienz said: Can you post a link to the relevant part of the rules, please, Neil? I think that's going to be your issue. The VAT notices do not name every eligible product. They say everywhere 'not an exhaustive list'. The only named products as far as the reclaim process is concerned are in the notes at the back of the reclaim form and it just says that this list will give you an idea of what you can claim for. There were some additional agreements by HMRC fairly recently about battery storage being @ 5% if fitted at the same time as a PV system but nothing about self builds afaik. I will have a look. What battery storage are we talking about? Sunamp? I'll see if I can find anything explicit but your best bet is likely to be finding out what others have managed to do, so @JSHarris and @Barney12 potentially. That said I don't think you will have a problem claiming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivienz Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 Thanks, @newhome. I'm looking at actual batteries, not heat batteries. At a push, I could get my PV supplier to supply them, but not sure how good a price I will get versus going direct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Neil Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 @vivienz, what system do you reckon on going for. So far as i'm aware the Tesla system is still the cheapest watt on watt, but that Sofar system @JSHarris mentioned is not far off. Mind you, there's also that powervault 3 system now which is supposed to allow for those microgeneration payments once the FIT ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivienz Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 I'll update on the system in the next few days - a few wrinkles to iron out first on price and confirmation of what the DNO response has been to my export application. Watch out for a blog post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) I have a horrible feeling HMRC might decide that battery storage isn't something "normally incorporated in a new dwelling". If it matters I would try to get a ruling from hmrc. Edit: Perhaps ask the Solar Trade Association. Seems they negotiated the 5% rate when installed at same time as pv with hmrc... https://www.solar-trade.org.uk/sta-secures-tax-win-for-solar-and-batteries-for-householders/ Edited January 15, 2019 by Temp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 11 minutes ago, Temp said: Edit: Perhaps ask the Solar Trade Association. Seems they negotiated the 5% rate when installed at same time as pv with hmrc... That's why I thought that there might not be an issue as the Solar Trade Association spent a long time lobbying them to agree the 5% rate. Can't see anything definitive anywhere however. @vivienz have you asked your PV supplier if he would zero rate the batteries if on a supply and fit basis? He surely must have fitted them in new builds before? Unless you can get confirmation out of HMRC (maybe just call them and ask, and say that it's integral to the PV system?) it might be worth bagging the zero rating from your PV supplier rather than take the risk that the reclaim is rejected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivienz Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 17 minutes ago, Temp said: I have a horrible feeling HMRC might decide that battery storage isn't something "normally incorporated in a new dwelling". If it matters I would try to get a ruling from hmrc. That's precisely my concern if I buy them separately, even though they are an integral part of the solar system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vivienz Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 1 minute ago, newhome said: @vivienz have you asked your PV supplier if he would zero rate the batteries if on a supply and fit basis? He surely must have fitted them in new builds before? Unless you can get confirmation out of HMRC (maybe just call them and ask, and say that it's integral to the PV system?) it might be worth bagging the zero rating from your PV supplier rather than take the risk that the reclaim is rejected. That's tomorrow's job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Big Neil said: @vivienz, what system do you reckon on going for. So far as i'm aware the Tesla system is still the cheapest watt on watt, but that Sofar system @JSHarris mentioned is not far off. Mind you, there's also that powervault 3 system now which is supposed to allow for those microgeneration payments once the FIT ends. The Tesla, AFAIA, has a limited throughput. Therefore, all that glitters ( and wow! does the Tesla glitter ) is not gold. For the given constraint on throughput, it is quite likely that you will invalidate your warranty by default before the unit suffers the expiry of its given ( broadcasted ) warranty period. Other manufacturers give an unlimited throughput, ( this is NOT often discussed, and apologies as I'm currently force-feeding myself on this subject and can only respond in line with current and ongoing 'enlightenment' ), and this should receive some serious recognition. Basically some manufacturers safeguard their arses by fitting an 'odometer', and when you've exceed the obligatory 100,000 mile mark, you're on your own. @vivienz is going for a system / supplier that I am working with, and they also supply ( 1000's of to date ) the Sofar system. They have, after in-depth and probably annoyingly and persistent hounding from myself, come up with a system that harmonises two battery controller / inverters to double the useable output to the house to around 7.2kW, which changes things dramatically when considering a battery system. Its still WiP but I'm confident this could be a game-changer for folk who have got to the tipping point of buying batteries and then backed out. More to follow, when I fully know what the Bobby Moore is. Questions welcome. Edited January 15, 2019 by Nickfromwales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Davies Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 2 hours ago, Temp said: I have a horrible feeling HMRC might decide that battery storage isn't something "normally incorporated in a new dwelling". There are probably other things which can be used as a precedent for this. E.g., rainwater harvesting systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Neil Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 10 hours ago, Nickfromwales said: The Tesla, AFAIA, has a limited throughput 5KW I think, maximum of 7.... Not really sure how this works, i sort of imagine it as like a clockable system chip in a computer, so in normal circumstances 5 but under some conditions can go higher. You'll understand more than me though so i'll await the enlightenment. What would you say is reasonable for a house. Seems to me that one of the considerations should be 17:00 to 19:00 of an evening. All the kids getting home and throwing the TV/PS4/Bebo box on, charging their phones. Also mummy and daddy arriving home from work and charging the car, people having showers, cooking the tea, boiling the kettle for a drink etc. Surely that ot plus power for heating system, lights etc must add up to more than 5??? .sorry - slight thread hijack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 I believe that the "throughput" is measured as equivalent charge/discharge cycle capacity, in kWh/day. Batteries are still, to a large extent, cycle life limited, with even the very best dropping capacity after a few thousand charge/discharge cycles. It's quite possible with a home battery system to have several charge/discharge cycles per day, if the house has a big PV system, and uses off-peak charging as well, so 1000 cycles per year seems possible under a fairly extreme use pattern. That's a fair bit more than most electric cars, that probably rarely go over around 300 cycles per year (judging from a month of ownership I'd say my electric car usage will be well under 100 charge/discharge cycles per year). i can understand Tesla being concerned about this, as the battery chemistry they use is inherently less capable of tolerating a large number of charge/discharge cycles than some other battery chemistries. For example, the Pylontech home batteries use LiFePO4 cells, that have more than double the cycle life of the LiCoNiAlO2 cells used by Tesla, but have a lower energy density and so are less well suited to high power electric vehicle use (FWIW my electric motor cycle originally used LiFe PO4 cells, I changed to using LiCoO2 cells and got more than 5 times the max discharge current and double the range from a pack 2/3rds the size, albeit with increased fire risk). For home storage I'm in no doubt at all that LiFePO4 cells offer far and away the best long term prospect out of all the lithium chemistries currently available. They are bigger and heavier for a given capacity and maximum discharge rate, but that doesn't really matter too much in a home storage application, where weight isn't really a critical issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Neil Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 19 minutes ago, JSHarris said: LiFePO4 Lithium POlymer? 19 minutes ago, JSHarris said: LiCoNiAlO2 Lithium Ion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, Big Neil said: Lithium POlymer? Lithium Ion? Both the same thing. All lithium chemistry cells are lithium ion, and all use a polymer electrolyte/separator, so the terms are interchangeable. The difference is all to do with the electrode chemistry, with LiCoO2 being lithium cobalt oxide, LiFePO4 being lithium iron phosphate and LiCoNiAl02 being lithium cobalt nickel aluminium oxide. There are other variations, too, like LiNiMnCoO2, lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide, LiMn2O4 and LiMn2O3, both lithium manganese oxide and a few others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Neil Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 ahhhhhhh - with you. You've learned me a new thing today - thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Davies Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 If you want to know a bit more about battery chemistries there's worse ways of spending 12 minutes than watching this: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Neil Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 will do - thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Neil Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Our chemistry teacher was a bell otherwise i might know more about them there symbols above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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