ASHP it is then . . .

[canalsiderenovation]

The idea of the water source heat pump is just not viable unfortunately, issues from the Canal and River Trust and civil engineer expense, it just isn't cost effective for us, even with the RHI payments the savings aren't enough compared with ASHP, so it's looking like an ASHP as our only other option, disregarding staying on oil. We are in the early stages but by all accounts we will be looking at using a company so we can claim the RHI payments as initial discussions we have had seem to suggest this is worthwhile.

 

I've chatted to a few companies and individuals and the suggestion seems to be to get an new EPC done based on our plans, before any work commences, even though we will be replacing windows/doors, rewiring, replastering, putting a second story on etc that way any RHI payments can be calculated based on the revised EPC so we have a clear idea of payments etc.

 

Couple of questions:

 

1. We have a utility door and a front door on our plans, both the same side which we would class as the back of the house, the front of the house being in front of the canal/garden. We don't want it visible on the front of the house, but if it was just on the floor/wall outside the utility door it would be around 5 metres from the front door. Logically this makes sense as the tanks etc would also be in the utility. Would this be to close or noisy? Most posts on here suggest people have put it on garages but our garage is the other end of the drive so not an option. Feel free to post some pics of examples...

 

2. I can't remember the exact details but there was mention of a metering and monitoring system payment around £200 over 7 years, but I think this was only with Mitsubishi system. Does anyone have any knowledge of this? Are Mitsubishi systems good compared to others?

 

3. I've read some posts of planning permission for ASHP but this only appears relevant to Scotland. From what I can see we wouldn't need PP. Are there any situations we would need PP?

 

Thanks.

[Jeremy Harris]

Planning consent is still required in England and Wales for an ASHP, I believe, but not for a GSHP.  I think the concern is over noise (not an issue with newer units) and the proximity to neighbouring properties. 

 

There's no requirement for heat energy monitoring to claim the RHI for a domestic installation AFAIK.  All the well-known brand names are pretty good when it comes to ASHPs, so Carrier (often re-branded with names better known in the UK), Mitsubishi, Panasonic etc are all good.  The key to getting an ASHP to work well is to ensure that it's specified, installed, and most critically, set up properly.  The majority of issues that have arisen from poorly performing ASHPs have been a consequence of installers not understanding the very specific nature of ASHPs and both sizing and setting them up for the specific requirement.

[Guest Alphonsox]

2 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Planning consent is still required in England and Wales for an ASHP, I believe, but not for a GSHP.  I think the concern is over noise (not an issue with newer units) and the proximity to neighbouring properties.

 

It's now permitted development according to the planing portal

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/27/heat_pumps/2

 

[ProDave]

You are doing a planning application for the extension anyway so include it on your plans, as we did (they still need PP in Scotland)

 

No they are not noisy. I have said before the noisiest bit of my heating is one of the circulating pumps on one of the UFH manifolds.

 

Length of pipework from ASHP to tanks is not an issue.  Position your hot water tank closest to points of use to get the hot runs from tank to tap as short as possible, don't get fixated with trying to put it close to the heat pump.  

 

Do check carefully the install costs you are being quoted.  As a sanity check get a non mcs company to also quote to install it and see how much difference there is.

 

If you want to play the system, you want a poor EPC now to claim the RHI and then if the EPC gets better later on........

 

As alrady noted you need to understand the real heat input needed and size the sytem properly so the UFH can run at a low temperature and deliver enough heat. 

[joe90]

On our planning application we didn’t mention the ASHP but the plans showed one. It was also mentioned somewhere that the DNO required you to inform them if you were having one but this goes back to the old non inverter models that had a large start up current, modern ones don’t (we did not mention ours to the DNO).

[canalsiderenovation]

Yes, I'd read it didn't need pp under permitted developmemt but as you say we could include it anyway.

 

Ah perhaps that's why we have been told to get an EPC done based on the plans rather than close to the work being done ? as the EPC will obviously be a lot worse without the triple glazed windows, insulation etc...

 

Good advice to get RHI quotes and non RHI quotes for comparison. I will of course post any quotes here for advice.

 

 

 

[newhome]

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

There's no requirement for heat energy monitoring to claim the RHI for a domestic installation AFAIK.

 

You have to have ‘metering for performance’ for a new ASHP installation in order to claim RHI. It doesn’t impact the payments however and I understand that several models have this facility built in. If you don’t meet specific criteria (the Ofgem site has full details but mostly because you have a back up source such as an immersion or ST) you have to have ‘metering for payment and in those circumstances the payment is based on the amount generated which of course is more unpredictable. 

 

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/system/files/docs/2018/07/factsheet_doineedmetering_july_2018.pdf

 

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Seems the rules have changed this year, I wasn't aware of that.  Metering for performance seems a bit woolly, though, as it seems that they are only monitoring electricity input, so won't have a good measure of performance.  Shouldn't add more than £30 to the installation cost, though, as that's about the cost of an approved electricity meter.

[jack]

It needn't add anything to the costs, depending on your ASHP. The basic controller that came with ours has a basic display of consumption and (I think) COP for both heating modes. According to the MCS guy I used, that's sufficient.

[Ed Davies]

5 hours ago, ProDave said:

You are doing a planning application for the extension anyway so include it on your plans, as we did (they still need PP in Scotland)

 

ASHPs are PD in Scotland (Class 6H) though the conditions are worth checking: “MCS Planning Standards or equivalent standards” whatever that means.

 

https://www.gov.scot/publications/guidance-householder-permitted-development-rights-9781780456836/pages/8/ 6.19

[ProDave]

3 minutes ago, Ed Davies said:

 

ASHPs are PD in Scotland (Class 6H) though the conditions are worth checking: “MCS Planning Standards or equivalent standards” whatever that means.

 

https://www.gov.scot/publications/guidance-householder-permitted-development-rights-9781780456836/pages/8/ 6.19

That must have changed recently then. In 2014 when /I did my planning application, an ashp was only permitted development if >100M from a boundary. Luckily I discovered that in time to include it on my plans.

[newhome]

41 minutes ago, Ed Davies said:

 

ASHPs are PD in Scotland (Class 6H) though the conditions are worth checking: “MCS Planning Standards or equivalent standards” whatever that means.

 

That's pretty vague! So if an ASHP is MCS certified, or was eligible to be then you are ok, but if not then it's subjective? 

 

 

[Hobbiniho]

On 29/11/2018 at 22:23, newhome said:

 

That's pretty vague! So if an ASHP is MCS certified, or was eligible to be then you are ok, but if not then it's subjective? 

 

 

looks like you (your installer) need to follow the MCS planning standards, which basically does the noise calculation to decide if its permitted development or not MCS planning standards can be found here https://www.microgenerationcertification.org/images/MCS_020_Planning_Standards_Issue_1.2.pdf

 

i am currently waiting for quotes to install an ASHP to a property that i am refurbishing although no measurements were taken of how far away the neighbours are but there is an extension and a nissen hut between my ASHP location and the neighbours