Simple driveway - Not on your Nelly!!

[TheMitchells]

When is anything ever simple??☹️  The more I find out the more depressed I become!  I shall explain.

 

After realising that we needed planning for the wet room extension and organising that, I now have some time to sort out a driveway nearer the doorway to the bungalow for my elderly parents.  The current driveway is about 30-40m from the front door and as neither mum nor dad can walk that quickly, when it was raining and they had shopping, they were both soaked by the time they got into the house.  So they have asked for a small driveway alongside the path to the front door.  its currently lawn and appears to be fairly free draining but I shall be conducting a permeablility test as described in https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/442889/BR_PDF_AD_H_2015.pdf

and as per Jeremy's instructions on another post.

 

The driveway will be 5m by 2.5m so 12.5 metres square.  and therefore I believe it needs to be permeable paving.  I planned to use concrete block paving so are these all permeable or do I need cerrtain ones?  I popped into the local BM and said what I was planning.  the chap there did not seem to know anything about permeablility of pavers. He has quoted for Bradstone Driveway Concrete Block Paving.  On the Bradstone website, I cannot see if they are permeable or not but as they also have a Driveway Infilta range for use with a permeanle system, i would guess not.  Or would the ordinary ones be okay if I use the right sort of sub-base layer? 

 

Which leads me onto the next question - the BM quoted for Type 1 but I believe I need Type 3.  however, a little look online and the Type 3 looks like being nearly 3 times the price.  Is that right? 

 

Do I really need Type 3 or can I just plan a nice rain garden to run alongside the non permeable driveway to collect all the run off?   that looks like the simplest and cheapest option. 

 

But then to cap it all - I now find that I probably need permission for the darn thing after all!!!  ?

 

From the Government Document

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/7728/pavingfrontgardens.pdf

 I found the following.

 

Legal issues

– If you are constructing a new access into the garden across the footpath

(officially known as the footway) you will need to obtain permission from the local council

to drop the kerbs and the public footpath may need strengthening. This is to protect any

services buried in the ground such as water pipes.

 

 

AHHH!!!  I can see this getting expensive..... No doubt I will need a specialist contractor to drop the kerb - which is only 5 cm high so we didnt plan to lower it at all.  The house opposite has made a driveway and havent bothered wtih the kerb, he just bumps up and we planned to do the same.  Should I take the risk and not tell them?? But what if there are pipes below the surface and they get damaged? 

Photo below shows the current layout, although it was 10 years ago.

 

 

This is the area.  the plan is to take up the box hedging to the right of the path (they are now about 18inches high and very neat) and run the drive alongside the path.  2.5m wide and 5m long.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by TheMitchells

[ProDave]

Would an alternative be to make a new drive parallel to the hedge adjacent to the house, so you enter on the existing drive and turn right.

 

No new entrance, no new dropped kerb, much simpler (but probably more area to pave)

 

The permeable paviers have pips along the sides so when they stack together a gap is left for water to drain down through. 

[Ferdinand]

8 hours ago, TheMitchells said:

This is the area.  the plan is to take up the box hedging to the right of the path (they are now about 18inches high and very neat) and run the drive alongside the path.  2.5m wide and 5m long.

 

I do not think you will get that drive - far too close to the junction. I have a number of 15m in my head for the minimum distance, but I have not looked it up. Usually ones closer were there already.

 

 

You will need to be the other side of the path, or as @ProDave says off the existing next to your new extension.

 

That side the kerb already looks to be at dropped height more or less, so you could just JFDI and see what happens. Perhaps not while you are the subject of planning's attention already, however - ie maybe leave it some time after the existing project.

 

BUT consider your extension project.

 

You can probably stick this drive on the same Application at minimal cost, once you have decided how you are doing it. Then if you delay one for >3 years, building the other will lock in the permission anyway.

 

I'd go further and say include the new space for your eventual kitchen extension on the same application as another volume like the shower/porch, to give a symmetrical double roof and a nicely articulated attractive facade. Then you can build that as and when without more Planning Faff and Cost - just be careful to do it in a way that you know will be what you want in the future. There is usually no regulation for when have to finish the implementation of a Planning Permission. Your bloke doing the PP may well have suggested doing it in two planning bites, if he is not aware or is locking in future work  (which is unworthy of me and probably casting an entirely unjustified nasturtium).

 

Even if you never build it, the PP will always be a selling point worth 2-5k or as a persuader.

 

Now, having addressed the other issues, what about this permeable driveway surface ??

 

What about the alternative to permeable from your document linked - traditional with surface runoff management which keeps water on your plot, which can be a soakaway or a flowerbed or similar. Why not use that huge lawn for what it does best and take the runoff there? It may need a conversation with the Planner as to what they will not quibble about.

 

Elephant Trap: That manhole on your plan on the other thread looks as though it may cause issues for your extension - consider carefully what it is and what it does, and how you will integrate it. It may be that you need to move it - which will be easier now if that is where you plan to take the output from your new wetroom.

Ferdinand

Edited November 13, 2018 by Ferdinand

[newhome]

As @Ferdinand says the kerb already looks to be dropped to the left of the path so just aim to enter the new driveway from there. It might not be exactly where your parents want it but it will still be a lot closer. Or you could extend the existing driveway along the tree line to provide a nearer parking space. 

[TheMitchells]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand said:

 

I do not think you will get that drive - far too close to the junction. I have a number of 15m in my head for the minimum distance, but I have not looked it up. Usually ones closer were there already.  You may be right and it was not something I had considered.  the reason for the right side is that Dad drives in and we wanted mum to be getting out onto the path, straight to the door.  But we can do the other side.

 

 

You will need to be the other side of the path, or as @ProDave says off the existing next to your new extension.

 

That side the kerb already looks to be at dropped height more or less, so you could just JFDI and see what happens. Perhaps not while you are the subject of planning's attention already, however - ie maybe leave it some time after the existing project. But they need it now, particularly with winter coming. 

 

BUT consider your extension project.

 

You can probably stick this drive on the same Application at minimal cost, once you have decided how you are doing it. Then if you delay one for >3 years, building the other will lock in the permission anyway. good idea and we will certainly do that.

 

I'd go further and say include the new space for your eventual kitchen extension on the same application as another volume like the shower/porch, to give a symmetrical double roof and a nicely articulated attractive facade. Then you can build that as and when without more Planning Faff and Cost - just be careful to do it in a way that you know will be what you want in the future. There is usually no regulation for when have to finish the implementation of a Planning Permission. Your bloke doing the PP may well have suggested doing it in two planning bites, if he is not aware or is locking in future work  (which is unworthy of me and probably casting an entirely unjustified nasturtium).  He did mention it and suggested that we do exactly that. Nice to know he is honest and not sneaky.

 

Even if you never build it, the PP will always be a selling point worth 2-5k or as a persuader.  That would be nice!

 

Now, having addressed the other issues, what about this permeable driveway surface ??

 

What about the alternative to permeable from your document linked - traditional with surface runoff management which keeps water on your plot, which can be a soakaway or a flowerbed or similar. Why not use that huge lawn for what it does best and take the runoff there? It may need a conversation with the Planner as to what they will not quibble about.

Sounds like a sensible plan and certainly cheaper than a permeable driveway, it seems.  And simple to do in that situation, being in the lawn. 

Elephant Trap: That manhole on your plan on the other thread looks as though it may cause issues for your extension - consider carefully what it is and what it does, and how you will integrate it. It may be that you need to move it - which will be easier now if that is where you plan to take the output from your new wetroom.
Ferdinand

 

Thank you Ferdinand for all those comments.  And I have to admit that I was a little concerned about that manhole cover.  if it stays where it is, it would end up in the utility room of the extension.  Is that allowed?  Who do I ask? the builder, the council or building inspector?  Or start a new post on here?  Will get to it later.  have some painting to get to now!

 

[TheMitchells]

1 hour ago, newhome said:

As @Ferdinand says the kerb already looks to be dropped to the left of the path so just aim to enter the new driveway from there. It might not be exactly where your parents want it but it will still be a lot closer. Or you could extend the existing driveway along the tree line to provide a nearer parking space. 

 Certainly is something worth thinking about, if it avoids issues about planning.?

[Ferdinand]

18 minutes ago, TheMitchells said:

Thank you Ferdinand for all those comments.  And I have to admit that I was a little concerned about that manhole cover.  if it stays where it is, it would end up in the utility room of the extension.  Is that allowed?  Who do I ask? the builder, the council or building inspector?  Or start a new post on here?  Will get to it later.  have some painting to get to now!

 

Suggest a separate thread or on the other one.

 

Ideally you would tell us where the existing drains go (look under the cover and see the directions), and where your plans would send the black and grey water from the new shower room.

 

F

 

[Ferdinand]

My view is do the comprehensive PP and do the drive + wetroom now.

 

If you can put up with a manhole in your utility (if allowed now - don't know about that) then it could be done.

 

You need to work out a table of you options and what is required for each, and the various costs. Not too diifficult and estimated from online tools (eg whatprice) should be good enough to give you a feel for the possibilities.

 

Start a thread about the overall project and ask for help.

 

F

[Ferdinand]

31 minutes ago, TheMitchells said:

 Certainly is something worth thinking about, if it avoids issues about planning.?

 

The carncil will want the footway reinforcing for that, and the cost is likely to be £1000 ish I would say. You  may be OK as it is a minor road, but they may also have views about enter-and-leave-in-a-forward-gear ie off road turning space. The easy way for that may be either the @ProDave idea, or possibly a sweep driveway if ProDave would impact your back garden.

 

F

Edited November 13, 2018 by Ferdinand

[scottishjohn]

manhole in utility  is a bad idea  last ditch --you would need special manhole--sealed type and do really want the chance of problems inside house.

 

[Jml]

If manhole is part of a public sewer (i.e. sewage from a neighbouring property enters there) then you will not be able to build over it and it will have to be moved.

[TheMitchells]

Thanks for all the comments and advice.  We will have to take some time weighing up the options and seeing what is best for us and parents.  But as we are applying for permission for the wet room, it makes sense to add the rest on the same application.  Will see if I can get a word with our builder to see what he says about the drains. 

[TheMitchells]

Just contacted the planning department and they have said I do not need planning for the driveway.? However, I do need to check with Highways to see if they have any concerns over the footpath. And they are not answering the phone at the moment. 

While I could just go ahead with a driveway, as we are going for planning for the Wet room, someone will be coming out to check the build and I do not want to have problems later for failing to get authorisation.  While others seem to get away with such things, I am one of those people who would get caught out - so its not worth the risk.  I am hoping that as others have added driveways and do not appear to have had any strengthing of paths done, we will not need it either.  and the kerb is so low, that it would not need lowering at all.  Keeping fingers crossed. 

[Jeremy Harris]

On the topic of pavers, we used Bradstone Infilta to meet the local authority requirement for permeable paving, under the SUDS rules.  Just the same as laying ordinary pavers, except the sub-base must be Type 3, not Type 1 and instead of laying them on sand they are laid on coarse grit, with more coarse grit brushed over to fill the slightly wider joints.  Not significantly more expensive than ordinary pavers, as most of the cost is in labour, and there's no more labour laying permeable pavers than there is laying normal ones (if anything, permeable ones are easier to lay, according to the chap that laid ours).

[PeterW]

10 hours ago, Jml said:

If manhole is part of a public sewer (i.e. sewage from a neighbouring property enters there) then you will not be able to build over it and it will have to be moved.

 

Not strictly true. 

 

You cannot have an accessible inspection chamber on a public sewer within a property. 

 

You can apply for a build over agreement and replace the IC with a set of junctions or swept connections and then concrete over the lot. The junctions remain but the IC is removed. The sewer route should be unnafected by this. 

 

 

[TheMitchells]

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

On the topic of pavers, we used Bradstone Infilta to meet the local authority requirement for permeable paving, under the SUDS rules.  Just the same as laying ordinary pavers, except the sub-base must be Type 3, not Type 1 and instead of laying them on sand they are laid on coarse grit, with more coarse grit brushed over the fill the slightly wider joints.  Not significantly more expensive than ordinary pavers, as most of the cost is in labour, and there's no more labour laying permeable pavers than there is laying normal ones (if anything, permeable ones are easier to lay, according to the chap that laid ours).

Thats good to know.  thanks Jeremy.

[TheMitchells]

Well, the answer came back from highways and its not good news. 

Having reviewed the proposals I would recommend that you make use of the existing access as in order to form another access would require stopping up of the existing as the Local Highway Authority would resist more than one access serving a single dwelling as per adopted policy.

 I would propose to provide an additional length of driveway leading from the existing access to the front door so that the highway ( including footway) is not required to be modified in any way which would be costly.

So we are not able to add a new driveway, without 'stopping' up the old one as the policy is to only allow one access per property.  And as the old one leads to the garage, thats not really an option. (Maybe).  And taking the driveway from the origonal all the way to near the front door would be far too expensive.  I have not measured it but it would mean a driveway a lot longer than planned drive and as the cost of our proposed one is around £1000, we would be talking several thousand and thats not an option either.  

So much for helping the elderly to stay in their properties longer!

 

So what do we do?

1.         Ignore the advice and just make a new driveway where we want it.  are they likely to send a Highways person out to check and take action against us?  Unlikely, The council are bankrupt so I doubt they will want any court cases. 

2.         Block the origonal driveway with some planters that can be moved later.  Make a new driveway as per our plans.  We are only using the garage for storage.  It means parking visiting cars on the road but we can cope with that.  But would the Highways still insist on dropping the kerb, which they admit is costly. 

3.         Leave the origonal driveway, remove some of the hedging next to the footpath and if Dad parks on the lawn, so be it.  Its not an official driveway. 

 

I'm tempted to go for option 3 - its cheap and solves the problem in the short term.  if the lawn gets a bit muddy, we could always lay a few paving slabs for the wheels!

 

Isnt Bureaucracy wonderful!??

 

[Ferdinand]

Was was it Deep Thought said of "The Question"? Tricky!

 

6 hours ago, TheMitchells said:

Having reviewed the proposals I would recommend that you make use of the existing access as in order to form another access would require stopping up of the existing as the Local Highway Authority would resist more than one access serving a single dwelling as per adopted policy.

I think that could be in practice overturnable, since rational planning allows for equally good solutions reached by different methods, but it could be a battle not worth fighting. Ultimately National Planning Policy is still rational and consistent.

 

That argument could perhaps be won if there is insufficient space to leave site in a forward gear, and providing an in-out driveway (which is unfortunately not what you want as it still needs lots of extra drive), then arguing that it gives safety. Is it possible to argue accessibility?

 

On your options, I think the Council have various ripostes available eg enforce + chargeback, but I agree they may not push it. If you have done no changes - and it is true that the kerb is low - then JFDI and see what happens.

 

If you propose blocking the existing, that could fall foul of them requiring a permanent block (cf easily dismountable disabled access ramps being frowned on in Scotland to try and prevent them being taken away later), or if the new provides less off-street parking.

 

One option you have not mentioned is two tracks of paving from the existing, or using a gridded setup similarly. May be surprisingly cheap.

 

As for how to proceed, I would consider:

 

1 - Leave the driveway out of your Planning App and get that approved (including the outline new kitchen as I argued above).

2 - JFDI on using the bit on the away-from-the-corner side of the front door. Once your lawn has been trashed by building the extension, consider making what you put there eventually to be dual purpose (perhaps after sign-off ?.

3 - If you need to do a change later, you could apply for a variation to the PP. That leaves the driveway issue separate and encapsulated - as I described here. That means you can proceed with the substantive without it getting delayed due to wrangling about the driveway.

4 - Document your use for future proof of "lawful use" purposes.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

Important Point

 

Why is the whole length of the kerb alongside your building already a drop kerb?

 

Have a little dig ... it may be that your deeds show a reason why that may be so. It could be eg that whatever was there before the bungalow used it that way, in which case you already have the right of access, or that the original plan for the estate included a potential off street parking area in the PP.

 

Even if you do not bottom it out, you can still argue that "it is already a drop kerb since 196x, and we have that access already". That could be difficult to enforce on, so you may just be left alone as long as you do not eg cause accidents at the junction or get a busybody taking it up.

 

In the meantime, do not admit in a binding form that it is *not* a drop-kerb. Your query was just a question about a possible scenario.

 

We had an end terrace site in the family where the deeds showed street access along the whole garden length, and there was a drop kerb, which meant that there could be no future access issues when someone considered building on it. There was a delightful sequel where the Council agreed to paint out the double yellows which prevented parking across the "access", and that the new owner stuck a couple of fake doors on the wall to look like a real access to prevent other people parking; that was the tactical way to create new parking rather than a full Traffic Order process. Someone knew the system, I think.

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Ferdinand

[ProDave]

There is the cheapskate option.

 

Put a run of paving slabs parallel to and to the left of the path spaced so you drive one wheel onto the path and one onto the slabs.

 

Instant cheap drive. If anyone asks, "Drive, what drive?"

[TheMitchells]

3 hours ago, ProDave said:

There is the cheapskate option.

 

Put a run of paving slabs parallel to and to the left of the path spaced so you drive one wheel onto the path and one onto the slabs.

 

Instant cheap drive. If anyone asks, "Drive, what drive?"

Thats what Dad suggested initially - but like an idiot, I thought we should do a 'proper job'!  I should have listened - the wisdom of age......?