Bu**er! Planning Required!

[TheMitchells]

Damn, damn, damn! While planning to build a small wet room extention on the side of a bungalow for my elderly parents, I had assumed we would not need full planning as its on the side of the house and not that large.  But I was wrong!  As it sits on a corner with two roads, there is no Permitted development on the side either!  I should not have assumed, I know.  If I had checked, I would have been able to apply at least a montha go.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/606669/170405_Householder_Technical_Guidance__-April_2017_FINAL.pdf

Page 13 to 16 shows our side extension is outside the permitted area.

 

So I am now looking at local architectural technicians to draw up some plans, as I would not have a clue how to do them myself.  I did have a look at Sketchup but think it would take hours for me to become anywhere near proficient enough to do the plans. 

 

The extension consists of a small rectange added to the side of the bungalow, making it level with the front wall, sticking a little further out than the porch (avoiding the drain run which is currently under the porch wall) and the roof line would match in with the main roof.  Here are my plans - dont laugh at their simplicity - I did my best.  ?

IMG.pdf

and a picture of the corner where it will go.

 

So the quotes have come back and are both around £300-400.

 

The first is this one.

Drawings:              Survey Existing Buildings        £       75.00

Prepare existing CAD digital Plans and Elevations.      £        125.00

Prepare outline Sketch Scheme Plans for approval     £        50.00

Prepare all necessary Plans, Elevations Sections and Detailed Final Plans,  and all necessary required to make a formal Applications.     £25.00 including all site / home / Council office visits / meetings and to liaise with  all other parties as necessary, printing rates as below  
 
Survey and all Drawing Work Total  £       275.00
 Fees: (All Printing is inclusive)
 Digital Location Plan 1:1250, 1:500 scale      £         38.50

Preparation of Digital PDF plans and make on-line Planning Portal Submission  £         26.25  

 

That seems quite reasonable.  He also included a nice document explaining all about the planning process and how he can help me through it.

 

The other quote is as follows;

 

Conduct a physical survey of the property. The production of architectural drawings which will include: survey plans & elevations, proposed plans & elevations, location, block and site layout plans.
£350.00
Licensed Ordinance Survey map download which is an external fee and a requirement for all planning applications.
£45.00
The preparation of a Health and Safety file and to act as Principal Designer as laid out in the CDM Regulations 2015. (For further information please see CDM guide that accompanies this quote).
£40.00
Additional design work will be charged at hourly rate    VAT £0.0  TOTAL £435.00
Note: Any works outside of that quoted above will be charged at £35 an hour. Drawings supplied in digital PDF format, paper copies available at additional charge.
 

The first appears to be cheaper and does the on-line application for me but  does not mention of H&S files and CDM regulations.  I am tempted to go with that one but would be grateful for any comments/advice.  Have i missed anything that will be needed? 

Could I do the Health and Safety file myself or is £40 a good price for it? 

 

Funnily enough - both chaps live just round the corner from our bungalow in different directions.  At least they know the area well and as there are loads of other bungalows with a multitude of varied extensions, I am not worried that it will get refused. Its just a shame about the time it will take to apply and that will put us into winter for the building work.  Poor Mum and Dad will just have to cope without any bathing facilities for another few months.  I can't even bring them to our house as Mum cant do stairs up to our shower room.

Edited November 5, 2018 by TheMitchells

[Jml]

17 minutes ago, TheMitchells said:

Licensed Ordinance Survey map download which is an external fee and a requirement for all planning applications.
£45.00

 

Avaliable a  lot cheaper here

 

 https://www.planningportal.co.uk/homepage/4/buy_a_planning_map

[MAB]

The Planning drawings don't have to be done in CAD although most are these days, I still see plenty of 'professional' planning drawings that are not much neater or detailed than your sketch but seem to get the job done! If you are going to use Building reg drawings then the plans will need to be more detailed but much of it can be covered by typed standard notes. However with such a small extension you could go ahead under a Building Notice without any formal plans:-

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200137/how_to_get_approval/78/pre-site_approval/3

[TheMitchells]

2 hours ago, Jml said:

 

Avaliable a  lot cheaper here

 

 https://www.planningportal.co.uk/homepage/4/buy_a_planning_map

Thats much cheaper!  Thanks, will get them ordered.

 

 

3 minutes ago, MAB said:

The Planning drawings don't have to be done in CAD although most are these days, I still see plenty of 'professional' planning drawings that are not much neater or detailed than your sketch but seem to get the job done! If you are going to use Building reg drawings then the plans will need to be more detailed but much of it can be covered by typed standard notes. However with such a small extension you could go ahead under a Building Notice without any formal plans:-

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200137/how_to_get_approval/78/pre-site_approval/3

 Maybe I should have a go at the Sketchup again.   AS it is such a simple extension, I cannot see them needing too much. 

 

I hope the Building regs can be done under a Building Notice - will check that out.  thanks for the advice.

[TheMitchells]

Just had a look and it costs £35.64 to order the two relevant maps and if I use the first chap, he's only quoted £38.50 so I can cope with that. I think I will go with him but will have a chat with him tomorrow and see if there is anything else I need add to the costs.  And he did say that he could get it all done this week so the application would get sent in sooner than I'd be able to do it. 

 

re building regs - the link above says that the Building Notice cannot be used;

For work which will be built close to or over the top of rain water and foul drains shown on the 'map of sewers'

I am not sure if that would mean us - You may be able to see the drain cover to the right of the garden in the photograph, and just to the left of the porch - it looks as if the porch outer wall was built along the foul drain line.   would our drain , be classed as being on 'map of sewers'?  What does that mean??

 

we plan to move the wall outwards by 50cm to avoid the drain and ensure plenty of space inside which will be handy should a wheelchair be used in the future.  I really hope we dont need to do more plans for Building Regs too!?

[TheMitchells]

One other thought.  In the future, after my parents no longer need the place, its highly possible that we'd move in ourselves and make a few changes to the layout.  If we make an applicaiton now, would it best to consider what we may want to do in a few years time, which would include the wet room, and make an application for it all now?  we would start the work but only add the wet room. would it mean we would not have to make another application later?  (unless we change our mind). hmm.  Probably a silly idea as we'd then have to come up with a future plan and we'd really need an architect to help us make the best use of the space.   I think I have talked myself out of that plan - gosh, this forum is good!  Its good to talk...... 

[ProDave]

I would look at extending the whole end of the bungalow out, not just one side. That will give you a utility room or whatever you choose yo use the extra space the other side of the entrance for.

 

You might tun into problems with where the building line runs in the side street, if your extension would stick out further forward than that, then it is not a given that PP would be granted.  I had a similar situation with a previous house on a corner plot that took an appeal to establish the fact I could extend sideways.

[TheMitchells]

19 hours ago, ProDave said:

You might tun into problems with where the building line runs in the side street, if your extension would stick out further forward than that, then it is not a given that PP would be granted.  I had a similar situation with a previous house on a corner plot that took an appeal to establish the fact I could extend sideways.

 

There is a bungalow opposite on a corner which has had an extension somilar to the one we would like.  And another one on another corner has just had a large extension added so I am hopeful that there should not be a problem.  But then I have been wrong before .......?

 

19 hours ago, ProDave said:

I would look at extending the whole end of the bungalow out, not just one side. That will give you a utility room or whatever you choose yo use the extra space the other side of the entrance for.

 

However, you may be right in thinking about a larger extension.  If we can get the money together, a full width extension would maybe make more sense.  My only concern would be the disruption to elderly parents.  So it may be up to them.  What about this plan?  it would enlarge the porch, giving a large coat and shoe cupboard, and the rear could be a utility and larger kitchen. I'm thinking of extending out 2-2.5m.  The wet room and porch could be done first before giving parents a break. then in the summer, the wall could be taken out of the kitchen to create a much larger room with a utility too. 

 

Its all stuff we would have done eventually anyway, so why not do it now and my parents can enjoy to space too, once the disruption is over.?

 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

4 minutes ago, TheMitchells said:

 

However, you may be right in thinking about a larger extension. 

 

Can't you build it all from the outside accessed from the porch or new garden door, and not create the penetrations to teh existing until it is nearly finished?

Edited November 6, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Gav_P]

Are you certain that you cannot do it under PD? How far from the side road is the existing elevation? 

 

But if that is too close, then assuming the existing porch is original, can you not build backwards from that (same width tho) up to 3 metres (subject to being 7 metres from the rear boundary).

Edited November 6, 2018 by Gav_P

[TheMitchells]

3 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

 

Can't you build it all from the outside accessed from the porch or new garden door, and not create the penetrations to teh existing until it is nearly finished?

 

That would certainly be helpful if it could be done.  I gather the builder did say he should be able to do the wet room using ladders to get in and out till the roof went on.  He didnt look too keen but understood the reasons for it, particularly as it will be winter during the build. 

 

2 hours ago, Gav_P said:

Are you certain that you cannot do it under PD? How far from the side road is the existing elevation? 

 

But if that is too close, then assuming the existing porch is original, can you not build backwards from that (same width tho) up to 3 metres (subject to being 7 metres from the rear boundary).

The Planning Officer said it would need planning.  And unfortunately the porch was added about 10 years ago so not origonal and the main reason for any building work, is to provide a toilet and wet room close to Mums room, so it has to go in the planned position. 

 

I have arranged to see the Architectural technician chap tomorrow and will see what he says about the likelihood of gaining planning.  Fingers crossed!?

 

 

[MAB]

On 05/11/2018 at 21:07, TheMitchells said:

Just had a look and it costs £35.64 to order the two relevant maps and if I use the first chap, he's only quoted £38.50 so I can cope with that. I think I will go with him but will have a chat with him tomorrow and see if there is anything else I need add to the costs.  And he did say that he could get it all done this week so the application would get sent in sooner than I'd be able to do it. 

 

re building regs - the link above says that the Building Notice cannot be used;

For work which will be built close to or over the top of rain water and foul drains shown on the 'map of sewers'

I am not sure if that would mean us - You may be able to see the drain cover to the right of the garden in the photograph, and just to the left of the porch - it looks as if the porch outer wall was built along the foul drain line.   would our drain , be classed as being on 'map of sewers'?  What does that mean??

 

we plan to move the wall outwards by 50cm to avoid the drain and ensure plenty of space inside which will be handy should a wheelchair be used in the future.  I really hope we dont need to do more plans for Building Regs too!?

 

I think by the 'map of sewers' it means the main council/water company or any shared drains/sewers which may cross your property. Your own properties drain runs and manholes can usually be moved or redirected by your builder to suit any proposed extension as long as no one else is affected.

The OS location map can often be 'cribed' for free if one of your near neighbours has had an extension done and their plans are on the local council website online......but don't tell anyone!

Also useful to look at the councils online plans for other extensions nearby for ideas and also see what drawing details are required. Unfortunately Building Reg drawings are not usually available online on Council websites but some planning drawings do include many of the Building reg detail notes required.

[Ferdinand]

10 hours ago, TheMitchells said:

I gather the builder did say he should be able to do the wet room using ladders to get in and out till the roof went on.  He didnt look too keen but understood the reasons for it, particularly as it will be winter during the build. 

 

Given the 2 outside doors planned for the new, and the closeness of the kitchen, it should be possible to keep them reasonably separate and protect floors with runners etc. There may be an argument for providing an outside tap or temporary tap in the wetroom to avoid continual incomings for water to make materials etc.

 

For the wetroom could you fit a temporary door in the side of the porch if it is not complicated, or even just bash a hole? Secondhand upvc in frame on ebay cost about £25.

 

Or set up a water butt on the patio or drive and top that up each evening with a hose, and use that for cement water etc. 

 

There are solutions available for access through the roof later. Some people have them in place permanently.

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

Is there perhaps an argument for making the kitchen more open to the lounge-diner too, while you are at it, by reducing that wall to a half length wall, or perhaps a half-height wall - especially if a new kitchen is planned?

 

Perhaps something else to store in the head for later.

 

F

[TheMitchells]

9 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Is there perhaps an argument for making the kitchen more open to the lounge-diner too, while you are at it, by reducing that wall to a half length wall, or perhaps a half-height wall - especially if a new kitchen is planned?

 

Perhaps something else to store in the head for later.

 

F

Yes, thats certainly something that we'd like to do. 

 

We had a good chat with the guy today and he came up with some interesting ideas and advice.  he said he would suggest we apply for permission for the Wetroom only, moving the wall of the porch back in line with the wet room so the roof was regular.  it will mean a slightly larger porch but would allow us to move the door to the side nearest the road, which for some reason would just feel better inside and use the space better, allow a ramp to the door etc.  Then once (!) we get permission, we could go back and make a seond application for the whole side extension and thats free.  he would include that in his fee and the council allow a free go (aparently).  we could just impliment the first scheme now with the second started so it could be done in the future.  I didnt know we could do that. 

 

Having talked to my parents, we alla gree that the whole extension would be too much for them to cope with and would make getting in and out fo the place, very difficult so thats something for the future, as well as your idea for opening up the kitchen to the lounge. 

He has measured up for the plans so will share once I have them.?

[TheMitchells]

The plans are quite straighforward and will give a good amount of space in the wetroom.  I think they will be fine.  Now I just need to keep fingers crossed that they get passed!?

 

New plan.pdf

New elevations.pdf