Feel sick with worry about escalating build costs

[AliMcLeod]

1 hour ago, Jude1234 said:

My buildier is being quite evasive when I have asked him for estimates for specific tasks of the build that are left. They say that contractors will add in a contingency when giving quotes so I won't getthe cheapest price - is that correct? 

 

What value is the builder adding here? It sounds like he's just sub-contracted the work, probably adding his 10-20%, and piling all the risk onto you.

I'd be wary of any builder (or his subcontractors) who cannot give an estimate for 2nd fix work.

 

But, i'd play his game for now and ask him to get the estimates for the remaining work (tiling etc) - at least then it'll give you a ballpark figure for what you need to complete the major remaining tasks.

 

And if you share them here, people will be able to say whether they are realistic. At the moment, you're running blind.

 

As for that approach not giving you the cheapest price - it sounds like the current approach is not doing that either...

Edited September 5, 2018 by AliMcLeod

[Ferdinand]

5 minutes ago, AliMcLeod said:

 

What value is the builder adding here? It sounds like he's just sub-contracted the work, probably adding his 10-20%, and piling all the risk onto you.

I'd be wary of any builder (or his subcontractors) who cannot give an estimate for 2nd fix work.

 

But, i'd play his game for now and ask him to get the estimates for the remaining work (tiling etc) - at least then it'll give you a ballpark figure for what you need to complete the major remaining tasks.

 

And if you share them here, people will be able to say whether they are realistic. At the moment, you're running blind.

 

As for that approach not giving you the cheapest price - it sounds like the current approach is not doing that either...

 

(Very good thriller, Running Blind, introduced me to Calvados.)

 

The builder should be providing a single point of contact / redress and managing the multiple relationships on your behalf.

 

He may be scared that is all about to go tits-up. Even more difficult to resolve once the relationship is beginning to be impaired if it that is the case. I am afraid I do not know what to advise on that except clarity, meeting your clear responsibilities and being straightforward.

 

Ferdinand

 

[newhome]

32 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Firm price" means unchangeable.

"Fixed price" mean can be changed in certain circumstances.

 

 

Depends what the fix is. If it’s a fixed outcome (much more usual than fixed labour) it can’t be changed unless via a change request (using the formal term, I imagine it’s more informal in building land). The reasons why it might change are for example the client wanting an unspecified change, or a formally agreed requirement being invalid, so ‘joiners will be off site by x day’ for example, or a contracted scope item is invalidated all of which will require a change which is why it’s important to get scope and terms right. I can’t see how the cost of materials changing would impact a fixed price contract unless that was formalised in the contract as a condition, Other than that what ‘certain circumstances’ would alter things? I deal with fairly large fixed price contracts every day and have never heard that things can change in the way suggested just because something didn’t turn out as the supplier expected unless this is explicitly communicated and agreed as part of the contract. 

 

Fixed price gives cost certainty but it’s REALLY important to get the scope nailed, and be aware that any changes can turn out to be more spendy this way as you lose the position of power to a degree if you change your mind. And termination is more challenging if you want to walk them off site. What are the termination arrangements? Payment %? To next milestone? More to consider in a fixed price arrangement. 

[Ferdinand]

How are you getting in, @Jude1234

As I see it, with each work package (which might be as small a install a cupboard or as large as do a landscaping scheme), you have about 10 options wrt cost changes. I have left out things like major layout redesign or smaller house, as you are at second fix stage.

 

1 - Leave as is, which may involve increasing the budget.

2 - Delay into the future (easy one may be eg ensuite in small room), perhaps with a spec change too.

3 - Install facilitating infrastructure, but leave for later. Might be eg put plumbing in for ensuite behind plaster, but do not do it yet. Some on BH do this for things that may be needed in their dotage - eg leaving a space and an aligned gap in the ceiling structure for a lift, which is covered over for now.

4 - Find the same materials and supplies at a less expensive price.

5 - Reduce quality of finish, or materials, or products, or simplify (example - granite -> laminate worktop)

6 - Find less expensve labour.

7 - Do things yourself.

8 - Minor redesign. 

9 - Leave out entirely. (Leaving out walls can be very creative). See William of Ockham

10 - Change something about the overheads eg move in earlier than planned and save the rent, even if this involves breaking the rules for a shorter time than it takes the Council to enforce.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Ferdinand

[newhome]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand said:

even if this involves breaking the rules for a shorter time than it takes the Council to enforce.

 

Is there any evidence to suggest that the council ever enforces anything if you move in before completion? If the dwelling has PP isn’t that all they are interested in really? When I got into a bit of a stand off with the council over the Form Q I said that if it couldn’t be resolved (they wanted the SE to do something that he said wasn’t possible within the scheme rules) I would just have to stay living here without completion. They seemed not bothered by that and in fact my neighbours lived next door with no completion certificate for 10 years (and no temporary habitation certificate either). Their view of a habitable dwelling is not the same as building control sign off, it seems to be when walls are plastered and there is potable water, where council tax is concerned anyway.  

[ProDave]

On 05 September 2018 at 07:58, Christine Walker said:

Sorry to but in but I’ve always found taking on trades at a daily rate is not recommended, after having to sack our joiners on our last house we took new ones on on a daily rate and as we couldn’t be there all the time things seemed to take an awful long time until we said we couldn’t keep paying that way we’d need a price to finish the job, after that they went at a rate of noughts!

I have to disagree.

 

If I am asked for a fixed price, I have to assume the worst and assume the job is going to hit loads if difficulties and take a long time and price for that.

 

On the other hand at a day or hourly rate the job takes as long as it takes and more likely I don't encounter difficulties and the job is quicker and costs the customer less than if I am forced into a fixed price.

 

I accept the price for hanging a door is probably more predictable, than run a shower cable from one end of a house to another where you have to lift floorboards and don't know what you will find until you get started

 

IF you find you have contracted an hourly rate and you find them deliberately wasting time then you need THAT conversation which may result in kicking them off the job.

 

[Jude1234]

Thanks for the detailed list @Ferdinand we are trying to look at some of those, but as you say some aren't applicable due to the stage we are at.  I am interested to explore at what stage we could move in, even with building control sign off.  This may be delayed due to a soakaway issue that the previous owner of the plot is responsible for. In an ideal world we would like the garage to be watertight so we can store a lot of stuff in.  So need to get the builder to provide costs and timings to finish that.  At the moment that hasn't been forthcoming unfortunately.

[newhome]

2 minutes ago, ProDave said:

 

If I am asked for a fixed price, I have to assume the worst and assume the job is going to hit loads if difficulties and take a long time and price for that.

 

Yep, that’s where the risk premium comes in and is why (at work at least) we break it down into phases because asking someone to quote on a fixed price basis right at the start of the job will result in the risk premium being too high due to the level of unknowns and uncertainty. So in the IT world that means having a define phase where those unknowns are investigated and clarified. That’s not really feasible in your example however as you can’t really pull up floorboards to see what’s there just to provide a better view of the cost. 

 

‘Clean’ jobs and by that I mean where it is very easy to see what needs to be done are always going to have a lower risk premium than those with the potential to uncover a nightmare. 

 

There are pros and cons with each. The most important thing bar none however whichever way you go is to use someone trustworthy. There are sharks out there who will catch you out using either method. 

 

 

[newhome]

2 hours ago, Jude1234 said:

I am interested to explore at what stage we could move in, 

 

You can move in whenever you’re ready in my experience. We moved in when the kitchen / family room and the downstairs wet room were finished. We didn’t have kids to worry about though. @ProDave and @jack moved in with kids though so perhaps they can advise. It makes sense to get your garage completed for sure though. 

[Ferdinand]

8 hours ago, Jude1234 said:

Thanks for the detailed list @Ferdinand we are trying to look at some of those, but as you say some aren't applicable due to the stage we are at.  I am interested to explore at what stage we could move in, even with building control sign off.  This may be delayed due to a soakaway issue that the previous owner of the plot is responsible for. In an ideal world we would like the garage to be watertight so we can store a lot of stuff in.  So need to get the builder to provide costs and timings to finish that.  At the moment that hasn't been forthcoming unfortunately.

 

To move in you need:

 

Somewhere to cook.

Somewhere to eat.

Somewhere to shower.

Somewhere to sleep.

 

And you probably want heat and light in the relevant bit of house, and some doors on, and at least one cold tap.

 

Plus any others you feel you need eg clothes storage (in extremis a suitcase under the bed unless the bed is a blow up mattress) and food storage (in extremis a fridge next to the camping stove you are cooking on).

 

If children desire more comfort then not having it will be a character-building experience that will stand them in good stead later in life .  You would have a fighting chance of raising not-snowflakes.

 

If you have a caravan you can have a holiday-at-home for a bit, but I would not suggest that heading into winter.

 

That is a bit tongue in cheek, and most people would have a bit more.

F

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Ferdinand

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, newhome said:

 

You can move in whenever you’re ready in my experience. We moved in with the kitchen / family room and the downstairs wet room finished. We didn’t have kids to worry about though. @ProDave and @jack moved in with kids though so perhaps they can advise. It makes sense to get your garage completed for sure though. 

The three of us (me SWMBO and 12 year old daughter) spent 18 months in the static caravan, including last winter.

 

We briefly toyed with the idea of sleeping in the house over last winter, but we would have still had to use the caravan for cooking, eating and showering etc so ruled it out as we would have to be heating both (and the heating in the house was not set up then)

 

We moved in a few weeks ago. Bedrooms, main bathroom, and kitchen / diner are all operational (I won't use the term "finished") and  heating and hot water are working. It's a lot more comfortable than the caravan and feels so spacious compared to the cramped quarters in that.

 

We are still very disorganised in terms of furniture etc. We want all new for the new house but making do with the bare essentials of the old stuff.  We don't have carpets upstairs, that is an expense that has to wait, as does things like skirting boards etc.  So the static caravan is still being used for storage, mainly for clothes as we don't have wardrobes in the house yet.

 

I am just completing my garage now.  Up until now I have been using one of the rooms of the house as a work room, and moving around as we go. But now we are living in it, I don't want all the sawdust, and in any case with only 2 rooms to do we would be running out of work space. So getting the garage sorted to use as a work space before we start the push to "finish" the last few rooms.

 

 

[Jude1234]

So nobody needs to approve that a building is okay to live in? I realise that until we have BC approval we cannot submit the VAT claim or change our mortgage to a standard one. But are there any other restrictions?  I have ready that you can buy building and contents insurance, is that correct? 

[newhome]

29 minutes ago, Jude1234 said:

So nobody needs to approve that a building is okay to live in? I realise that until we have BC approval we cannot submit the VAT claim or change our mortgage to a standard one. But are there any other restrictions?  I have ready that you can buy building and contents insurance, is that correct? 

 

Nope they don't seem to have to 'approve' that you can move it TBH. At least not in my experience. The completion certificate just states that the building conforms to building regs but I would expect that this may also be the trigger for a home insurance policy to judge that your house is insurable using a 'normal' insurance policy (others may have a different view). Certainly when our self build insurance ran out before we had finished the build we were unable to extend the insurance so I ended up trawling the market for another insurance policy that would cover the (at the time) empty unfinished property and then allow occupation with building work continuing (and contents included). Such a policy was hard to find but I did manage to find one. They wouldn't cover any accidental damage however whilst building work continued. 

 

What sort of insurance do you have now? See if that will cover you occupying the property. If not I used a company called quoterack to arrange my insurance through having been unsuccessful trying to arrange cover by calling various insurance companies direct. I filled out their Challenge Quoterack form and 3 brokers called me within 24 hours. My insurance was through Halifax so pretty mainstream, but it was not one I was able to arrange myself. 

 

https://www.quoterack.co.uk/ChallengeQuoteRack.aspx

 

There are a few people on here now who are living in their not yet signed off properties. They will have more recent experience of insurance cover I'm sure. 

 

As an aside I'm sure that there are many people who don't tell their insurer that they are having major building works done on their existing property such as an extension, or move into a house where a completion certificate has not been issued for an alteration to the property. In each case they are leaving themselves open to not being covered by their household insurance. If an insurance company can refuse a claim based on the small print, they will. 

[Guest Alphonsox]

A number of us are using policies sourced through GSI insurance, they seem to have a flexible approach to quoting for non-standard situations.

https://gsi-insurance.com/

[ProDave]

I am still on a self build site policy.

 

Another local self builder told me that once building control issued a certificate of temporary habitation, he was able to get an normal insurance policy. I hope to get to that stage by the next renewal.

[Hecateh]

On 05/09/2018 at 06:41, Jude1234 said:

My builder is being quite evasive when I have asked him for estimates for specific tasks of the build that are left. They say that contractors will add in a contingency when giving quotes so I won't get the cheapest price - is that correct? 

 

Also what is an approx daily rate for a tiler? And is it correct that the majority of the cost of scaffolding is in the erection and dismantling? 

 

As you see it is not being straightforward getting any figures out of him unfortunately.

Your situation is sounding more and more like mine.  I had to stop payment before my builder would come up with some prices.  The prices he then came up with were stupidly excessive.  At that stage he was wanting an extra 46k (on a 90k house). 

 

On 05/09/2018 at 07:25, PeterW said:

I would check with him what is needed to finish the garage and then ask him to stop. 

 

I would then take the rest of the build “in house” and hire the subcontractors directly, asking for either day rates or a firm price from each to complete. 

 

And tiler day rate around you should be £180-240 for a good one. 

 

I got him to finish the roof whilst we 'negotiated' and then told him 'NO' and since then I have taken it on myself with considerable and essential help from the fabulous people on this forum.  

 

On 05/09/2018 at 07:58, Christine Walker said:

Sorry to but in but I’ve always found taking on trades at a daily rate is not recommended, after having to sack our joiners on our last house we took new ones on on a daily rate and as we couldn’t be there all the time things seemed to take an awful long time until we said we couldn’t keep paying that way we’d need a price to finish the job, after that they went at a rate of noughts!

 

I had a similar experience with carpenters - I'm told not their fault which may be correct but it still cost me.  I would like to think that professionals time estimates shouldn't be too far out.  

 

On 05/09/2018 at 08:07, Jude1234 said:

It is very specific work that needs to be completed now, 2nd fix, tiling, laying of flooring (when the screed is dry!) so estimates I thought would be quite easy to produce.  I have even said that the trades are allowed to say 'that isn't in the quote  so will be x more if you want me to do that'.  I just want transparency and to feel in control of the costs, which I am not at the moment.  There are some more difficult task, such as the steel canopy(?? architect design) that I realise could cost more, but I have said that we can move in without that and look at it later.

 

I have been getting quotes for specific work - which I am getting better at being very specific about.  Mostly I have had firm price quotes, being very upfront about any potential issues that I am aware of AND clear that if there is something that couldn't have been foreseen (- not just wasn't; but couldn't have been).  EG the spark said he hadn't accounted for the extra cable with a split level house (being fair this was a justification for the time taken rather than a request for more money.)

 

10 hours ago, ProDave said:

I have to disagree.

 

If I am asked for a fixed price, I have to assume the worst and assume the job is going to hit loads if difficulties and take a long time and price for that.

 

On the other hand at a day or hourly rate the job takes as long as it takes and more likely I don't encounter difficulties and the job is quicker and costs the customer less than if I am forced into a fixed price.

 

I accept the price for hanging a door is probably more predictable, than run a shower cable from one end of a house to another where you have to lift floorboards and don't know what you will find until you get started

 

IF you find you have contracted an hourly rate and you find them deliberately wasting time then you need THAT conversation which may result in kicking them off the job.

 

 

You are a genuine professional - some aren't.  AND I have done it (knocking them off the job) but it ain't easy (especially on my own) and there have been sleepless nights and money paid first.

 

8 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

If children desire more comfort then not having it will be a character-building experience that will stand them in good stead later in life .  You would have a fighting chance of raising not-snowflakes.

 

spoken as a true bachelor  although to be fair my kids would have done it happily when they were younger (as preteens though rather than teenagers) ----- way before I would have dared taking anything like this on.

 

The only person, after the main contractor, that I have outright sacked is my plumber - the partner of a friend, who gave me a fixed price of £1200 - and then did 15 hours work for it - £80 per hour NO NO NO.  I've now got 2 experienced plumbers with way more knowledge and experience and the price for both of them per hour is less than her.  

 

You CAN project manage this yourself Jude and cut out his percentage, now that you have the great people of this forum behind you.  PM me if you want to talk further

[Hecateh]

Oh - and share with the people that come to quote that you want someone you can trust and then share the quotes on here before accepting.  

 

If you are going for a day rate - ask approx how many days - ok that's not fixed but it gives you an argument if they say x days and are slipping a long way behind

 

 

[newhome]

9 minutes ago, Hecateh said:

The only person, after the main contractor, that I have outright sacked is my plumber - the partner of a friend, who gave me a fixed price of £1200 - and then did 15 hours work for it - £80 per hour NO NO NO.  I've now got 2 experienced plumbers with way more knowledge and experience and the price for both of them per hour is less than her.  

 

Wow! I hope you didn't pay that! Having said that I was fleeced by a joiner. A grand for what amounted to 2 half days. That was before I found this forum however. I have learnt a lot by reading various threads here and have somewhere to validate any future work now. 

 

 

[Tyke2]

11 minutes ago, Hecateh said:

Oh - and share with the people that come to quote that you want someone you can trust and then share the quotes on here before accepting.  

 

If you are going for a day rate - ask approx how many days - ok that's not fixed but it gives you an argument if they say x days and are slipping a long way behind

 

 

If my new plot come's off I may need some of your tradesmen!

I got ripped off by a plumber from Hoyland on some tiling  when I refurbed a bungalow a few years back.

[Hecateh]

3 minutes ago, Tyke2 said:

If my new plot come's off I may need some of your tradesmen!

I got ripped off by a plumber from Hoyland on some tiling  when I refurbed a bungalow a few years back.

Definitely got a great spark.

I 'think' I have good plasterers, carpenter and plumbers but will update when work is complete.  I'm logging their hours as well as costs and appreciate there has to be give and take. 

 

I impressed the plumbers though as I picked something up that had a H U G E spider ensconced, hairy leg span about 4 inches, and though it made me jump they really don't bother me.  Father and son team, the dad picked it up and chucked it at his son who had a totally hissy fit.  16+ plus stone man absolutely cacking himself ?

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, newhome said:

 

Wow! I hope you didn't pay that! Having said that I was fleeced by a joiner. A grand for what amounted to 2 half days. That was before I found this forum however. I have learnt a lot by reading various threads here and have somewhere to validate any future work now. 

Agree a rate for a job - job done - have to pay.  I knew she was pricey just not how pricey.  

[Tyke2]

8 minutes ago, Hecateh said:

Definitely got a great spark.

I 'think' I have good plasterers, carpenter and plumbers but will update when work is complete.  I'm logging their hours as well as costs and appreciate there has to be give and take. 

 

I impressed the plumbers though as I picked something up that had a H U G E spider ensconced, hairy leg span about 4 inches, and though it made me jump they really don't bother me.  Father and son team, the dad picked it up and chucked it at his son who had a totally hissy fit.  16+ plus stone man absolutely cacking himself ?

 

 

 

Agree a rate for a job - job done - have to pay.  I knew she was pricey just not how pricey.  

Do the plumbers know anything about undrfloor heating, solar hot water etc? Its something im considering.

[newhome]

7 minutes ago, Hecateh said:

Agree a rate for a job - job done - have to pay.  I knew she was pricey just not how pricey.  

 

I know . That's how I felt paying the joiner but felt I had to given that he had quoted an amount and I had accepted. He rushed everything dreadfully, didn't sort the level access as I requested (luckily BC accepted it but they weren't truly happy about what he had done), he left a crazy mess everywhere as he just sawed literally where he stood (fixing skirting in various rooms) and chipped one of the tiles in the vestibule. 

[Hecateh]

@Tyke2  Don't know about the solar at all.  

 

They said they have not done a lot of UFH, but it's an area they are really looking at developing. Lots of experience but only recently set up their own business.

I've got wet UFH in entry and lower level and going for electric upper in my split level.  I'm just down the road from you, in Hoyland centre,  Come and have a look?

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Hecateh

[newhome]

I can't get anyone round here who knows about solar thermal (which is what I assume you mean by solar hot water?). Bloke installed it and scarpered and now it needs to be fixed no one wants to come and do it as it needs roof access. So it's a white elephant sitting up there. There seem to be very few companies that install solar thermal these days. Even UFH up here seems pretty unusual. Most plumbers only really seem au fait with gas or oil boilers and rads. So choose your system with maintenance in mind too. 

[Jude1234]

55 minutes ago, Hecateh said:

Your situation is sounding more and more like mine.  I had to stop payment before my builder would come up with some prices.  The prices he then came up with were stupidly excessive.  At that stage he was wanting an extra 46k (on a 90k house). 

 

 

I got him to finish the roof whilst we 'negotiated' and then told him 'NO' and since then I have taken it on myself with considerable and essential help from the fabulous people on this forum.  

 

 

I had a similar experience with carpenters - I'm told not their fault which may be correct but it still cost me.  I would like to think that professionals time estimates shouldn't be too far out.  

 

 

I have been getting quotes for specific work - which I am getting better at being very specific about.  Mostly I have had firm price quotes, being very upfront about any potential issues that I am aware of AND clear that if there is something that couldn't have been foreseen (- not just wasn't; but couldn't have been).  EG the spark said he hadn't accounted for the extra cable with a split level house (being fair this was a justification for the time taken rather than a request for more money.)

 

 

You are a genuine professional - some aren't.  AND I have done it (knocking them off the job) but it ain't easy (especially on my own) and there have been sleepless nights and money paid first.

 

spoken as a true bachelor  although to be fair my kids would have done it happily when they were younger (as preteens though rather than teenagers) ----- way before I would have dared taking anything like this on.

 

The only person, after the main contractor, that I have outright sacked is my plumber - the partner of a friend, who gave me a fixed price of £1200 - and then did 15 hours work for it - £80 per hour NO NO NO.  I've now got 2 experienced plumbers with way more knowledge and experience and the price for both of them per hour is less than her.  

 

You CAN project manage this yourself Jude and cut out his percentage, now that you have the great people of this forum behind you.  PM me if you want to talk further

Thanks for the support @Hecateh I am feeling more positive about managing the remainder of the build. The tiler that is coming is on a day rate of  £180 which is what was quoted earlier. Just getting quotes independently for all of the other work and take it from there.