If it goes click, I'll buy it......

[Hecateh]

You choose who you believe @SteamyTea . Clearly you know best and I am deluded - but healthier because of it

 

C'est la vie

[Jeremy Harris]

Cochrane is pretty much the only independent, volunteer run, review body that I know of.  It was a bit of an eye-opener seeing just how poor, in terms of demonstrating a useful outcome, most drug trials are.  Cochrane reports are free, but the process of creating them is very slow, because of the very large amount of data that has to be manually reviewed; there's no real alternative to having several reviewers working independently, and in parallel, assessing data by eye to spot the omissions and examine the reasons for leaving out some results.

 

There is a general trend that a lot of commonly prescribed drugs for everyday ailments are little or no better than placebo.  Even drugs accepted as being "effective" are often far less effective in reality than many assume.  Take hypertension medication, as an example.  Typically treatment is prescribed for those with a BP that's regularly over around 140/90.  The most commonly prescribed drugs, like angiotensin-2 receptor blockers, or angiotensin-converting-enzyme inhibitors, can lower BP by about 10mmHg, no more. 

 

Given that often medication may not be prescribed until BP gets well over the lower threshold, perhaps not until it reaches around 160/100, and that ideally it needs to be close to 120/80 in order to reduce the risk of stroke, cardiovascular disease etc, then it's pretty clear that these drugs aren't going to do a great deal in practice.   Add in that the latest evidence from long term studies shows that the reduction in mortality or morbidity from prescribing anti-hypertensive medication to those over 55 is small (in fact not statistically relevant) and you have to ask quite how we've managed to be hoodwinked into spending hundreds of millions of pounds on treating people that almost certainly won't receive any significant benefit.

[SteamyTea]

Just now, Hecateh said:

You choose who you believe

No, I research and synthesise, very different.

 

I get a bit fed up with misinformation, especially when people are being parted with their cash by charlatans.

I also have personal reasons to distrust GPs diagnosis and treatments, but that is not really relavent here as none of them were even case studies (though one became one and has saved thousands of lives since).

 

What really concerns me though is the attitude that 'at least they do no harm' when it comes to supplements.  They do as they often stop a correct diagnosis, and that can be fatal.

 

Just far a laugh, create a scale of pain and plot it against time and activity.  I think you will be amazed at what shows up.

[newhome]

I have no issues with people believing that some of these alternative treatments work for them, be they supplements, magnetic bands, homeopathy or whatever else is flavour of the month. Whether it’s the placebo effect or not it matters not surely? I would love for something to work for me tbh but maybe because I’ve always been the biggest sceptic they don’t work for me, or at least none that I have tried. I would never have seen myself even trying these things a few years ago tbh but as you get older and things start to go wrong or hurt with increasing frequency the desperate side shows up and you find yourself giving the weird and wonderful a try. I did draw the line when someone at work suggested that crystal healing might be beneficial. WTF!! 

[Jeremy Harris]

Placebo effect always amazes me, not so much for the way it makes interpreting data challenging, but because it's hard evidence that belief has a very noticeable impact on outcome.  Looking  through study data where, in addition to a double blind trial they have run a zero treatment study, the placebo effect is often pretty dramatically demonstrated.  In a couple of studies I looked at involving anti-hypertension medication, the placebo effect was more pronounced than the additional effect of the medication.

 

The challenge is trying to harness this ability for the mind to impact the body in a consistent way, across all personality types.

 

As a related example of the power of the subconscious, I found out a while that I, like around 20 to 30% of the population, suffer from "white coat hypertension" (I think I related the tale here).  What I find fascinating about that is that it is a response that's so deeply buried in my subconscious, that I cannot do a thing to change it.  Like the placebo effect it's another demonstration of how little we really understand about the way our bodies really work, in the holistic sense.

[newhome]

14 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

As a related example of the power of the subconscious, I found out a while that I, like around 20 to 30% of the population, suffer from "white coat hypertension"

 

I have a similar issue. I was so fed up of being told that I had high blood pressure when I had it tested by any medics that the last time the GP insisted on taking it I dragged along my own BP monitor that consistently showed it was ok at home. When I used it to take a reading at the surgery to prove the point that the monitor would show a normal reading the reading was high. I have no idea why as I don’t feel stressed or anxious when at the GP, I feel completely normal, so like you I have come to the conclusion that I cannot do anything about it but nor do I understand it. 

 

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

53 minutes ago, newhome said:

I would love for something to work for me

That is where correct diagnosis of the problem comes in.

25 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

"white coat hypertension"

Have they not tried other methods to check your BP.  I had to wear a monitor for a week once.  Not ideal, but gives a better overall picture.

My ex had low blood pressure.  When she had a stroke (a TIA, so not a huge one), the duty Doctor said, 'Blood Pressure is fine'.  My ex pointed out that it was a lot higher than normal.

After a few more tests over the coming weeks, transpires that she had a hole in the heart.  That should have been diagnoses soon after birth.

Now I am not saying that all BP problems are caused by this, just highlighting that the medical profession can consistently miss things (she was, seemingly, a bit of a hypochondriac with a very fat file at the GPs).

[newhome]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

That is where correct diagnosis of the problem comes in.

 

I have a diagnosis but when you are told that you may need a more invasive surgery than the one you’ve just had and it may not work anyway, or you have to learn to live with it you tend to want to reach for an alternative that isn’t popping loads of painkillers. 

[SteamyTea]

I guess that no one really wants surgery, but that does really highlight my point about correct diagnosis and treatment, rather than witchcraft and extracts.

 

I do find it strange that no one on here has suggested that using flour and water instead of cement is good for housebuilding, based on the 'fact' they have seen a gingerbread house.

[Hecateh]

The things I take are with the full knowledge and support of my GP.  

The majority of them are things that have been previously prescribed by the GP because of deficiency due to malabsorption.  I have found forms that are more palatable, cause less digestive issues in some cases, and are more efficacious at getting my levels to an optimum level which is demonstrated by regular blood tests ordered by the GP.  I am also saving the NHS money by not requiring prescriptions for things that relatively cheap for me to buy myself. 

 

She freely admits that medical training around vitamins and minerals is minimal and that it quite likely that, for some people, selective and judicious use of these specific vitamins and minerals will be beneficial.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

That is where correct diagnosis of the problem comes in.

Have they not tried other methods to check your BP.  I had to wear a monitor for a week once.  Not ideal, but gives a better overall picture.

 

 Spot on.  My "problem" was that I was picked up as having high blood pressure when I was 34 years old, during an annual aeromed.  I was despatched to my GP, and he agreed with the Surgeon Commander that had picked it up, so my GP referred me to a consultant at Penzance Hospital.  They did a stack of tests and concluded that they couldn't find any underlying reason, so diagnosed me with essential hypertension and put me on a low sodium diet.  That had no effect, so they then prescribed medication (which luckily didn't lead to me having to stop flying).  Every time we moved to a new area, my new GP (and aeromed doc) would just blindly accept the original diagnosis. 

 

Around 3 or 4 years ago I bought a home sphygmo, and started keeping my own records.  These showed that my BP was, if anything, a bit low (typically it was around 115/75).  I kept telling my GP this, and he kept telling me that it just showed that the medication was working.  My GP retired last year, and I took the opportunity to tell his interim replacement that my home measured BP was a bit on the low side, and I also told him that I'd noticed that I could tell by lunchtime if I'd forgotten to take a pill that morning, as I had more energy.  He wasn't convinced, really, and his lack of interest prompted me to try and find some proper evidence.

 

The first problem I found is that the internet is awash with crap, especially medical crap.  I stumbled upon Cochrane, read all their reviews, and found the key information that a diagnosis of hypertension should not be made without a 24 hour ABPM.  I went back to my GP and asked if I could be given an ABPM and was told they didn't have access to one, so I went and bought one (not cheap, but by this time I was bloody determined - I still have it, and the analysis software, if anyone wants to borrow it).   I stopped taking the ARBs I'd been on for years, waited a week or so to make sure they weren't having any residual effect, then did two 24 hour ABPM sessions, one during a weekday, when I was up and about a lot and one at a weekend. 

 

I went back and saw another GP (there's a high turnover of GPs at our old practice), showed her the 4 years or so of home readings, plotted on a spreadsheet, plus the print outs from the ABPM software.  She looked at the data, frowned and said that I'd almost certainly never been hypertensive and had been misdiagnosed over 30 years earlier.  She said that there was absolutely no reason for me to be taking any medication, and cancelled my long standing repeat prescription.  She did apologise on behalf of the doctors that had both made the original misdiagnosis, and those that had been (in her own words) too lazy to do a proper check when I'd changed practices.  The bottom line is that I've spent many hundreds of pounds on prescriptions that I didn't need, have suffered mild side effects (primarily fatigue) from taking a medication that wasn't needed and worst of all I've caused the NHS to incur a heck of a cost over the years, both in unnecessary GP appointments and in the cost of treatment that wasn't  required.  Add in the time off work I've had for regular BP checks and medication review appointments and the cost of this one idiotic error has been quite considerable.

 

Would I trust any doctor to make an accurate diagnosis now?  The answer has to be a resounding "NO", I would not, at least until I'd done a very thorough check for myself.

[SteamyTea]

7 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

a consultant at Penzance Hospital

We don't get the best down here.  They seem to fall into two categories:

Surfers

Waiting to be retired

 

The whole health service down here is now in special measures.

 

I have met quite a few professional, from a few different industries, down here, and they are all amazed at the social deprivation and very poor economy.

There is a strong correlation between poor health and low income.

[newhome]

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

Around 3 or 4 years ago I bought a home sphygmo, and started keeping my own records.

 

I've had a BP monitor for over 10 years now. I bought it as soon as it was declared that I had high blood pressure and low and behold only when I'm at the GP / hospital etc. My BP tends to run slightly high but not to the level show at the GP when diastolic shoots up over 100. I still find it weird that I can leave the house having just taken it and it's fine and 15 minutes later at the GP it's gone way up. 

 

I am a distrustful type in general when it comes to medical things. I never take anything at face value and always research every single condition I am said to have / medication that has been prescribed. Just my nature TBH. 

 

 

[lizzie]

Lots of us on here seem to have health issues.  Is that a subconcious motivator to build perhaps?

 

I know one of our reasons was health. If not I probably would not have left the house we built 30 years ago where I was very happy but continiously unwell as I became less able to tolerate our (beautiful) garden, river and low lying location in the bottom of the valley. I needed the top of a hill and fresh air.......god knows I didnt need the stress of the build but we are where we are with that now and the air is crisp and clear and I do like the (almost finished ) new house.

[newhome]

4 minutes ago, lizzie said:

Lots of us on here seem to have health issues.  Is that a subconcious motivator to build perhaps?

 

Hmm, I had no health issues before the build. Clearly building was bad for my health lol. 

 

 

[joe90]

Like most I have had health problems for many years ( stress related according to some) and friends told me that taking on my build would not be good for me. I have found the opposite, I do not get stressed ( but have no mortgage or borrowing to deal with) I have learnt to have a very laid back approach to life ( something I tought myself). I have thoroughly enjoyed the achievement of my build and bloody proud of what I have achieved. My wife gets uptight about somethings but I refuse to. Life is too short, life is not a rehearsal, life is to be enjoyed ( as much as you can if your not well) I do ache from the physical work but that is not a bad thing.

 

Do you know what?, I have been working indoors during this glorious weather and I am going down to the beach in a minute in my historic open top sports car for a coffee, the work can wait for a couple of hours ?

[SteamyTea]

9 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Do you know what?, I have been working indoors during this glorious weather and I am going down to the beach in a minute in my historic open top sports car for a coffee, the work can wait for a couple of hours

The cloud is on its way, my glorious sunshine as vanished.

[joe90]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

Do you know what?, I have been working indoors during this glorious weather and I am going down to the beach in a minute in my historic open top sports car for a coffee, the work can wait for a couple of hours

 

Ah, that did not go well!, half way to Bude and lots of noise from front wheel, limped home hoping nothing goes bang or falls off, so that’s something else to do, mend the car ( at least it’s old enough to be mended with a set of spanner’s) ?

[joe90]

All mended, no big deal ( although it sounded like it) . For those anal enough to know, the disc backplate bolts had come loose and catching on the wheel bearing hub, the bolts are now a little shorter?.

 

frankly this was a little light relief from the endless building work, back to it now.

 

p.s. I did not deviate from the thread as my car was going click, and I did buy it.

Edited June 12, 2018 by joe90
Add

[Jeremy Harris]

8 minutes ago, joe90 said:

p.s. I did not deviate from the thread as my car was going click, and I did buy it.

 

Mandatory deviation from the thread topic is almost a requirement here...

[newhome]

 

14 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I did not deviate from the thread as my car was going click, and I did buy it.

 

My knee goes click but I didn’t buy it. Had I done so I would want my money back as not fit for purpose! 

[Pete]

3 hours ago, joe90 said:

 

Ah, that did not go well!, half way to Bude and lots of noise from front wheel, limped home hoping nothing goes bang or falls off, so that’s something else to do, mend the car ( at least it’s old enough to be mended with a set of spanner’s) ?

Coffee?

[epsilonGreedy]

On 09/06/2018 at 20:59, recoveringacademic said:

I need some medical WD40 . Recommendations ?

 

 

Yes it is called glucosamine and chondroitin, works on old men and limping dogs (the canine variety). Give it 3 weeks to take effect, reconditioning natures big-end bearing takes time.

[SteamyTea]

3 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

Yes it is called glucosamine and chondroitin, works on old men and limping dogs (the canine variety)

Except it doesn't

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/does-glucosamine-really-work/

And that is just one meta analysis, there are many more.

 

I really do wish that witchcraft was not supported at all.

[joe90]

Yes, after taking glucosamine for years I also read that and stopped taking it.  Is there any “ proven” concoction that helps us old men? with their joints ( mine are getting worse after all this building malarkey)