IVT Ecolane ASHP - any owners out there?

[DeeJunFan]

Got this message from the Electrical forum @ProDave suggested. 

 

Its seems more straightforward but could still be an expensive enought procedure with no guarantee of success. 

 

Quote "

Obviously moisture in the isolator could cause earth leakage problems but occasionally you get internal moisture problems with refrigeration systems.

 

All refrigeration systems should be moisture free internally and with colder refrigeration systems such as cold-rooms or freezers parts of the refrigeration system on the low pressure side runs well under freezing point and if there's even a small amount of  moisture in the system it freezes and causes blockages.

 

With air conditioners it's possible to have moisture in the refrigeration system that goes unnoticed because the evaporation temperatures are usually a few degrees above zero Celsius so the moisture can migrate around the system without freezing and causing blockages. If there is moisture it can cause low insulation with the compressor windings as well as damage to the compressor valves.

 

With moisture problems, replacing the compressor will only maybe improve the leakage problem because the oil in the compressor that's being removed is hygroscopic and will contain at least some of the moisture that's causing the problem. There may however still be enough moisture elsewhere in the system for the problem to reoccur at a later date.

 

Before replacing the compressor I'd suggest your contractor should pull a deep vacuum on the system for at least several hours and repeat the electrical tests. If the test results improve significantly he should replace the filter/dryer and regas the system.

"

[Jeremy Harris]

@DeeJunFan,

 

That advice you've had is spot on.  Moisture in the refrigerant would be my best guess as to the cause of the failure in the first place.  Hard to prove that it's a manufacturing/commissioning fault now, though, even though I suspect it may well have been.

[DeeJunFan]

2 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said:

@DeeJunFan,

 

That advice you've had is spot on.  Moisture in the refrigerant would be my best guess as to the cause of the failure in the first place.  Hard to prove that it's a manufacturing/commissioning fault now, though, even though I suspect it may well have been.

 

And do you think it would be wise to try the vacum and re-gas procedure or just dump the unit and get a replacement? 

 

I'm torn between spending anymore than i have to on this unit incase something else goes wrong.  Also if i purchase the Cool energy unit there could be another can of worms. 

 

[dpmiller]

just for confirmation yes, the only thing to see the Megger was the Compressor.

 

another angle- before getting a fridge man to pull a vacuum to dry off the system might it be worth heating the compressor housing (hairdryer or heatgun) and retry startup with it hot?

[DeeJunFan]

3 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

just for confirmation yes, the only thing to see the Megger was the Compressor.

 

another angle- before getting a fridge man to pull a vacuum to dry off the system might it be worth heating the compressor housing (hairdryer or heatgun) and retry startup with it hot?

 

And that would confirm that it may have water in it?  Or would it be more to do the warming of the compressor?  I'm still trying to get my head round all this. 

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, DeeJunFan said:

 

Yes i think this is the current consensus. 

 

I have been looking around for a replacement unit and came across these guys.  Not sure if anyone has any knowledge of them. 

 

https://coolenergyshop.com/collections/inverter-heat-pump/products/cool-energy-inverter-6-18-7kw-stainless-heat-pump-ce-ih6-18

Funny enough I will be installing one of those soon.  Only my customer is choosing this cheaper one, which is not inverter driven. https://coolenergyshop.com/collections/pro-range-heat-pumps/products/cool-energy-pro-range-8-41kw-stainless-heat-pump-model-ce-h8

 

Apart from being quieter and lower inrush current I could not give him a compelling enough reason to pay more for one that is inverter driven.

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

I think the snag with water in the refrigerant is that it can cause permanent damage, so degassing the unit, giving it a good long time at hard vacuum to dry it out, and then re-gassing the unit might not fix the problem, if the water has actually damaged the insulation around the motor windings in the compressor.  It might be worth doing, but I'd guess you're looking at around £300 to de-gass, vacuum and re-gass the unit, with no guarantee that it will fix the problem.

[DeeJunFan]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Harris said:

I think the snag with water in the refrigerant is that it can cause permanent damage, so degassing the unit, giving it a good long time at hard vacuum to dry it out, and then re-gassing the unit might not fix the problem, if the water has actually damaged the insulation around the motor windings in the compressor.  It might be worth doing, but I'd guess you're looking at around £300 to de-gass, vacuum and re-gass the unit, with no guarantee that it will fix the problem.

 

Yes the no guarantee is my big issue.  And i've been told the price of the refrigerant has gone up something in the region of 300% in the last few months given its going to be phased out for new appliances.  

 

Propane appears to be the new refrigerant of choice. 

[DeeJunFan]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

Funny enough I will be installing one of those soon.  Only my customer is choosing this cheaper one, which is not inverter driven. https://coolenergyshop.com/collections/pro-range-heat-pumps/products/cool-energy-pro-range-8-41kw-stainless-heat-pump-model-ce-h8

 

Apart from being quieter and lower inrush current I could not give him a compelling enough reason to pay more for one that is inverter driven.

 

 

 

And have you heard anything about the units?  I have messaged them and they give a 1 year warranty on all parts and a 5 year warranty on the compressor.   

[PeterW]

I spoke to the guys when I was looking at them for someone and they seemed pretty switched on and provided everything I needed at the time for the installation such as instructions even before making a purchase. 

[DeeJunFan]

6 minutes ago, DeeJunFan said:

 

And have you heard anything about the units?  I have messaged them and they give a 1 year warranty on all parts and a 5 year warranty on the compressor.   

 

The way the IVT is setup is effectivtly runs at 100% all the time so apart from the softer start you dont get much use out of the inverter on the unit i have. 

 

They do mention a "Reduced current soft start module"  in the specs of the unit. 

 

 

[PeterW]

2 minutes ago, DeeJunFan said:

The way the IVT is setup is effectivtly runs at 100% all the time so apart from the softer start you dont get much use out of the inverter on the unit i have. 

You can change that - who wired it up ..?

[DeeJunFan]

Yes i got the power setting table and i was trying to get the spark to setup some kind of power selection but it was on the long finger. 

 

The Cool energy one comes with a digital controller so it should be easier to manage. 

 

I'm just feeling a tad unlucky to have the compressor go after such a short time. 

[DeeJunFan]

Just had a chat with the cool energy agent for Ireland. 

 

He said that the 9kw ivt heat pump would be equivalent to their 17kw because if how they perform their power rating.  Is this sales BS or a real consideration?

[DeeJunFan]

It seems there is something to it but wildly overstated by the guy.  The 11.8 is slightly more powerful that the IVT 9kw.  I haven't paid much attention to this type or rating before.  It's more like COP ratings in other heat pump documents. 

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by DeeJunFan

[dpmiller]

funny I had a chat a while back  with someone at CoolEnergy.... I asked if they had plans for a smaller inverter and the response was pretty much it's pointless as there's no real efficiency difference.

 

Umm?

[Jeremy Harris]

You need to make sure you're comparing apples with apples when looking at power output and COP.

 

For example, at A7/W35 (which is an unrealistically optimistic figure for anything other than heating) then the IVT is rated at 9 kW and the Cool Energy unit is rated at 9.4 kW, so nothing much in it.

 

The IVT has a rated COP at A7/W35 of 2.6, but rather significantly, the Cool Energy specs don't seem to quote the COP for these conditions at all.  Why not, I wonder?

 

Looking further, the Cool Energy unit gives a rated power input of 3.5 kW, and a maximum power of 4.8 kW, so that means the COP for 9.4 kW output is probably somewhere between 1.96 and 2.69 (the higher the COP the better the efficiency).

 

All told, it looks as if the Cool Energy unit is probably less efficient than the IVT, especially as we know that inverter drive heat pumps tend to give very much better efficiency under light load conditions (ours pretty much always operates with a COP of over 3.5, despite the spec giving a lower figure).

[Ed Davies]

19 minutes ago, Jeremy Harris said:

Looking further, the Cool Energy unit gives a rated power input of 3.5 kW, and a maximum power of 4.8 kW,

 

That confused me in their specs, what's the difference between rated and maximum power? I was looking at their smallest non-inverter one and it had an even bigger variation (1.5 kW “rated”, 2.25 kW “maximum”). What would make it run at different power levels (other than startup, I assume that's not what this is about)?

[Jeremy Harris]

4 minutes ago, Ed Davies said:

 

That confused me in their specs, what's the difference between rated and maximum power? I was looking at their smallest non-inverter one and it had an even bigger variation (1.5 kW “rated”, 2.25 kW “maximum”). What would make it run at different power levels (other than startup, I assume that's not what this is about)?

 

 

I think this is probably related to supply voltage variation.  It's a non-inverter drive unit, so will run at a higher input power with the supply at the maximum allowable (probably 253 VAC, as that's the UK grid max) than it will when run with their lowest supply voltage (stated as being 220 VAC, but could be as low as 216.2 VAC for the UK 230 VAC nominal supply).  The compressor probably isn't a resistive load, so my guess is that there might be a significant input power variation with supply voltage.

 

 

 

 

[DeeJunFan]

I asked for some follow up details and they sent me this .

[Jeremy Harris]

Still no COP given, but, as we know that this is a non-inverter unit, the input power will always be between 3.5 kW and 4.8 kW.

 

That gives a COP for the A-3/W35 condition of between 1.67 and 2.28, and a COP for the A-7/W35 condition of between 1.56 and 2.14.

 

Frankly, these are not great figures, especially as the unit cannot modulate down if required to deliver less than full output. 

 

For example, the figures for my 7 kW Glowworm (really a Carrier with a different badge) are:

 

A7/W35  power input = 1.82 kW power output = 7.2 kW COP = 3.96

 

A7/W45 power input = 2.32 kW power output = 7.4 kW COP = 3.18

 

This is an old unit, too, so not as efficient as some of the newer units available.  I bought it in 2014, and it was old stock then, having been made in 2012, so it's 7 year old technology, yet seems a fair bit more efficient than the Cool Energy unit.

[ProDave]

At the risk of thread drift, the house I am wiring that is planning to use one of these Cool Energy units,. also tells me he is buying a a pre plumbed cylinder from them with all the controls and pumps on it.  I can't see that on their website. All I can see is plain HW tanks, and heat pump hot water tanks, but I am reading that as a tank with it's own heat pump built in.

 

I worry the guy is not going to get what he really wants.

[DeeJunFan]

Just a bit of an update. 

 

I wasn't overly happy with the Cool energy figures or the information given/not given.  I asked for COP and was ignored.  I spoke to the Rep and he has quoted me over £4000 to install a £2000 heat pump which i wasn't all that impressed with. 

 

I have spoken to the owner of Red Heat pumps here in Northern Ireland http://www.red-limited.com/  They seem to have one of the most advanced heat pumps i've seen on the market and i'm awaiting a quote from them for getting a new unit.  They have also sent out one of their fitters to assess our current plumbing setup to ensure that anything that has been done internally didn't affect the performance and therefore life expectancy of the existing unit. 

 

I had spoken to the owner a few months ago as he was looking for my company to build him an app for the heat pump.  But i may be forced to consider moving away from ASHP and going to gas,  we are way to remote for mains gas so it would be getting a storage tank installed and paying a standing charge for the privilege.  But the budget just wont go to anything too crazy for a ASHP replacement. 

 

I'm going to start another thread to brainstorm the gas route.   How easy would it be to swap out and ASHP with a gas boiler and any other changes we may need to make to our setup to prevent short cycling etc. 

 

Cheers

D  

Edited January 20, 2020 by DeeJunFan

[Declan52]

There only based down the road from me and never even knew. Going by their website they should be an easy machine to swap in. Hope you get a solution other than a big gas tank in your garden.

[DeeJunFan]

3 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

There only based down the road from me and never even knew. Going by their website they should be an easy machine to swap in. Hope you get a solution other than a big gas tank in your garden.

 

I can put the tank behind the garage so that bit would be ok.  Its more the big tank in the utility room i wouldnt be so sure about if i need a big buffer. 

 

The owner is a decent fella and he knows his stuff.   I have spoken to 2 plumbers who have worked with them before and they reckon they are the best heat pumps around.