Another cheap 12kW Kingspan Aeromax ASHP

[Inchbyinch]

http://www.plumbcenter.co.uk/product/carrier-33aw-cs1-unit--interface/

looks like the same one in the description but is labelled a cs1B. Another enquiry point for Monday.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Inchbyinch

[Guest Alphonsox]

Unfortunately I tried them a year ago - No stock and not going to get anymore.

[Inchbyinch]

I think I'm just going to have to make a trip up north, buy you a pint and learn all the tricks of the self build trade ??

the carrier call on Monday will hopefully solve all

[Inchbyinch]

Just an update on this, spoke with carrier today, it's now a 33AW-CS1B controller. I'm told it does the same thing but no doubt once I get it it will have something changed.

£184 pus delivery which is a bit more for me at £15

[Jeremy Harris]

That's useful to know.  Given the high level of functionality this command unit has, in that it's a day of week/time programmer as well as a thermostat and a way of setting all the various parameters in the ASHP, then that's not a bad price.  I must sit down and read through the auxiliary relay controls, as I feel sure that you can do quite a lot with this unit in terms of controlling a wide range of systems, switching valves, ancillary heaters, pumps etc.  It's the fact that it has so much functionality that makes it look a bit daunting to set up, but I've only ever bothered to look at the ASHP settings options, not all the options for using this as the main controller for a system.

[Inchbyinch]

GLad to be able to contibute, for the first time I think! 

I'll definitely be onto you Jermey when it comes to powering it up. I'm thinking of getting them soon and hooking them up in test mode to see how they go.

[Jeremy Harris]

I better sit down and refresh my memory on all the settings then, as I remember looking at how the Command Unit might be used as a complete programmer/controller/thermostat back when Joe90 found a cheap ASHP, some time ago, but I haven't pulled the manuals out and had another look since.

Getting the unit running to test it is easy, but ideally you want to fill it and connect it to something like a coil of pipe, so you can get a feel for how it works.  You can make it run in cooling mode simply by putting a wire link between pins 3 and 6 on the ASHP dry contact connections (next to live wires, so caution is needed!) and you can make it run in heating mode by connecting a wire link from pin 3 and pin 6 and another link from pin 3 to pin 7.

Pin 3 is the ground connection line for the control circuit, pin 6 is the "heat pump on" command line, pin 7 is the "heat or cool" command line.  I drew this diagram that sort of explains what the dry contact connections do:

[Inchbyinch]

Thanks Jeremy, I'll look forward to tackling this

[Jeremy Harris]

IIRC, all of the functions that can be operated by dry contacts in that diagram I drew, can also be operated by the Command Unit.  There's a lot of flexibility there, in terms of being able to programme when switched 240V is available from the ancillary relay bank in the ASHP, the one that controls the optional extras inside the red box at the bottom.  You don't have to use those relays to control the functions shown as they are just programmable outputs that could be used for several different purposes.  

[curlewhouse]

Am I right in thinking from all of this that there are considerable savings to be made by forgetting the RHI scheme for those of us in well insulated builds and just sourcing our own? I'd planned to do my own pipework anyway but am wary of how complex commissioning sounds. But I'm also aware that there seems to be an eye-watering markup on supply and installation packages. I can wire a house to code from scratch and do anything at all a car needs from changing a wheel through to fitting an new engine, and have never needed to pay for a plumber in my entire life, but I'm not in any way an engineer.  Is it doable by a layman from pipe run planning to commissioning? 

Edited August 13, 2016 by curlewhouse

[joe90]

Yes, I am not bothering with RHI, I bought mine on EBay for about £800 and with lots of help from members on this forum plan to do my own installation and commissioning.

[PeterW]

15 minutes ago, curlewhouse said:

Am I right in thinking from all of this that there are considerable savings to be made by forgetting the RHI scheme for those of us in well insulated builds and just sourcing our own? I'd planned to do my own pipework anyway but am wary of how complex commissioning sounds. But I'm also aware that there seems to be an eye-watering markup on supply and installation packages. I can wire a house to code from scratch and do anything at all a car needs from changing a wheel through to fitting an new engine, and have never needed to pay for a plumber in my entire life, but I'm not in any way an engineer.  Is it doable by a layman from pipe run planning to commissioning? 

 

Pretty much, yes ! They have 2 connections to water - some have an internal circulation pump so you don't need to put that in - and it's just the basics of a strainer on the inlet and a filling loop somewhere. 

 

The electrics are usually a 16A supply (check this in the manual) via a double isolator, and then the control wires. Some have a nice unit you can basically plug in with 2 wires and also use as the room stat. 

 

The "commissioning" comes with changing the heating curves etc which is done from the command unit although a couple of professional installs I've seen recently didn't even change the standard settings. 

[jack]

11 minutes ago, curlewhouse said:

Am I right in thinking from all of this that there are considerable savings to be made by forgetting the RHI scheme for those of us in well insulated builds and just sourcing our own?  

 

The big issue with the RHI is that it rewards consumption.  Even if you're using the ASHP to preheat your DHW, a well insulated house uses relatively little energy, meaning that the potential RHI benefit may not make up for the ridiculously inflated charges that RHI-registered installers demand. 

 

My electrician managed most of the electrical side of our 5kW Panasonic Aquarea installation, but I did everything else starting from a less technically experienced position than you.  Assuming you can acquire the installation manual for whatever you intend to buy (ie, if you're thinking of one of the second hand units in this thread), I think you'll be fine.  Plenty of people on here who've done it and can chip in if you get stuck.

 

[curlewhouse]

That's been my main bugbear about RHI since I first read about it, it seemed to make no sense that the more energy you use/less efficient your build, the more money they'd pay you... on a scheme meant to reduce energy consumption!   Self sourced it is for us then!   Knocks a few £k off my figures.

[jack]

There are ways around it.  Energy consumption is estimated, so within reason there's nothing to stop you estimating your U-values in a favorable direction!

[Stones]

Using the default air tightness value (15) in SAP and not bothering with an air tightness test is another.  Seems to be common practice up here.

[jack]

I'd considered that, but what (if anything) is likely to be said if you have a new house with an actual air tightness test?

[Guest Alphonsox]

There is a Kingspan ASHP controler listed on Ebay if anyone is still looking for one

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172487673334?ul_noapp=true

[joe90]

That's cheaper than I paid for mine direct from carrier.

[Guest Alphonsox]

There a new 6KW Unit listed at £250 if anyone is still looking.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/152582165540?ul_noapp=true

[Jeremy Harris]

That's functionally the same as the Glowworm unit we have, the only difference is the label on the front.  Be interesting to see what it goes for.  There's no mention in the description about whether the Command Unit is included.  The fact that he says there are no manuals and that it's still wrapped and on a pallet, suggests that it may be, as the Command Unit is wrapped in the installation manual and packed inside the unit, under the cover.

 

If there is no Command Unit, then there's one for sale here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KINGSPAN-AEROMAX-AIR-SOURCE-HEAT-PUMP-USER-INTERFACE-CONTROLLER/172724880638?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D43782%26meid%3Dce8de494bdb94eeab535d68ab7651a33%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D152582165540

[Guest Alphonsox]

The Kingspan Units didn't come with the command units as both I and Joe90 found out. They were an added extra at some horrendous cost from Kingspan. We both ended up buying Carier command units.

[ProDave]

Do you need the command unit?

 

Is the 6KW the electrical input rating, or the heat output rating?

[Guest Alphonsox]

The command units are not essential - which is why they were an added extra for Kingspan. They are primarily used to change the default settings on the unit. If you are happy to run with the defaults (which are not too bad from memory) then the machine can be run with switches.

[Jeremy Harris]

The main problem is that the default weather compensation curve results in a fairly high flow temperature, certainly mine was too high on the default setting and that resulted in severe defrost cycling.  I ended up removing the weather compensation altogether, and programming in a constant flow temperature, as that makes a great deal more sense for a low energy house with UFH, where you're mixing the flow down to around 25 deg C at the most.  Mine is set to run at 40 deg C maximum flow, no matter what the outside temperature, and that gives no defrosting at all in our installation, which improves the real-world COP by a lot.