Washing Machine Piping Puzzle

[Spinny]

Sigh.

I used my best efforts to provide dimensioned drawings & photos of the pipe arrangements on the back of my washer, showing them to the plumber and taping them to the wall. Despite this, now I have the machine here it will not fit properly because of crossing spaghetti pipes. I have a 45mm outer diameter drain pipe, a 25mm water supply hose, and of course a rear drum projection beyond the permitted 60mm machine size by another 30mm. A ridiculous 100mm required to fit a washing machine that is supposed to fit when plumbed into 600 by 600. (I have over 80mm behind the machine proper but not 100mm.)

 

While I do the plumbers job for them because they can't do it and draw up a new pipe arrangement so they can change what they have done to something that works, one or two questions.

 

Can the water supply hose fitted to my Siemens washer with an integrated leak detection/stop leak thing fixed into the end of it - be shortened - or must the pipe be used at it's full stupidly long length ?

What are the rules for a washing machine drain upright height and for the length of a washing machine drain hose ? can they be cut down ?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

Edited 20 hours ago by Spinny

[ProDave]

I put NO pipes or sockets behind the machine.

 

ALL pipes lead into the adjacent cupboard where they terminate.  Ditto the mains plug.

 

You still need to be careful that the pipes don't crossover, but that is just the order you thread them through the holes into the cupboard.

 

Your idea would only work (if they got it right) until you change the machine for a different one.

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, Spinny said:

Sigh.

I used my best efforts to provide dimensioned drawings & photos of the pipe arrangements on the back of my washer, showing them to the plumber and taping them to the wall. Despite this, now I have the machine here it will not fit properly because of crossing spaghetti pipes. I have a 45mm outer diameter drain pipe, a 25mm water supply hose, and of course a rear drum projection beyond the permitted 60mm machine size by another 30mm. A ridiculous 100mm required to fit a washing machine that is supposed to fit when plumbed into 600 by 600. (I have over 80mm behind the machine proper but not 100mm.)

 

While I do the plumbers job for them because they can't do it and draw up a new pipe arrangement so they can change what they have done to something that works, one or two questions.

 

Can the water supply hose fitted to my Siemens washer with an integrated leak detection/stop leak thing fixed into the end of it - be shortened - or must the pipe be used at it's full stupidly long length ?

What are the rules for a washing machine drain upright height and for the length of a washing machine drain hose ? can they be cut down ?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

You are instructing trades to do the opposite of what most do, ergo shit is hitting fans at a rate of knots here.

 

I haven't put a washing machine tap or mains plug behind one for over 20 years. Ditto fridge, ditto freezer, ditto oven, ditto list goes on.

 

You just ask them to migrate these supply's to the nearest adjacent cabinet and then put the hoses / cables to that location.......

 

2 hours ago, Spinny said:

Can the water supply hose fitted to my Siemens washer with an integrated leak detection/stop leak thing fixed into the end of it - be shortened

Why do you think it's so fecking long?!?

[Spinny]

Unfortunately there is a wall on one side of the washer, and the tumble dryer on the other. The tumble dryer only just fits as these heat pump ones are 610 deep and the waste pipe has to run behind it to serve a toilet basin regardless. Having the washer drain hose feed across to the sink unit might be an option but it would need extending. I am looking to be able to pull the machine out in case of maintenance. There is no accessible valve on the water feed to the washer apart from the tap on the end behind the washer.

 

I'll draw a diagram and post it - it's complicated - as they say.

 

One thing made be laugh - I suggested moving the water feed to a different point on the copper pipework to ease routing the basin waste - plumber moved it, but left the feed stub I was trying to do away with and just sealed the end of it. After all why unsolder a T and replace it with a 90 when you can just cap it off. Then added the new feed position using these compression copper fitting things.

Edited 8 hours ago by Spinny

[torre]

Is that plasterboard dabbed on behind? You could remove it to get yourself another 25mm

[Spinny]

Nope. It is a plastered brick wall.

When it was bare masonry I realised the architect had missed a trick because the outer leaf of the house wall comes inside  at the side of the new window, therefore it would need insulating. So added 20mm XPS backer board in a vertical strip to insulate that area as well as the window reveal. this brought the wall out, but I had it left recessed either side of the insulation at the bottom to make more room behind the washer and sink unit.

As you can see the insulation has been cut into to fit pipes across.

 

The other side of the wall where the wall cupboard is mounted is an understairs loo. So the water feeds run across and through that wall from the utility sink to feed the toilet basin. Likewise the toilet basin waste will come through that wall where the cross is on the wall.

Edited 8 hours ago by Spinny

[ProDave]

I still would not have the taps behind the appliance.  Imagine an appliance hose splits, you have to pull the appliance right out to reach the tap and stop the leak.

 

TD on the left and WM in the middle then it's pipes can feed into the sink unit.

 

Another thing I have done in this situation is bring the units forward and fit 650mm deep worktop.

[JohnMo]

Move washer to next to sink and dryer next to wall. Drain, water supply and electric in cupboard below sink?

[Mr Punter]

Everything in the sink cupboard.  Be aware that you cannot always change the handing of the porthole doors, just the furniture doors.  You will need to take a decent chunk out of the middle support panel.  For electrics you either need 2 sockets on the inside side of the sink unit or trailing socket under the plinth.  Leave the plugs on the appliances for warranty purposes.

[ProDave]

Looking again at the picture I assume you are already having a deep worktop cut to fit into the window recess thus forming the window cill as well.  So it would be easy to move the sink unit forward a bit now before that worktop gets cut.

[Spinny]

Yes the worktop will run into the window frame to function as window cill also. Not templated yet.

Units/dividers were fitted and now removed (don't ask me why 🙄) and were positioned to provide a worktop 665mm deep, and 640mm deep from the wall. 665 at sink position and at washer position, and then 640 behind the dryer where the wall insulation is.

Swapping the washer and dryer around does not work. It would move the washer from a 665 deep under worktop recess to a 640 deep recess. We have also bought both machines with doors opening in opposite directions for easy use.

Yes I could increase the depth of the worktop further, but it is a small room and I don't really want to do that. It also increases the reach across to open and close the window.

 

I just need a plumbing layout for behind the washer that doesnt require having a 45mm waste pipe with a 25mm water feed pipe running over it producing a need for 70mm plus the 630mm deep machine.

I also need to have it possible to pull the machine out for maintenance, therefore some length (1m+ ish) of slack water feed pipe, and slack washer output hose looped behind the machine.

 

I now already have the two appliance power sockets wired into fused switches on the wall under where the sink unit will go. So power can be cut under the sink.

 

If the water feed hose to the machine were to split I believe the valve built into the end of it should automatically detect the leak and turn off the water, as it would do if the machine itself started leaking. Never-the-less it would be good to be able to turn the water supply to the washer off under the sink. At present there are in line valves on the hot and cold feeds, both at floor level (inaccessible when the sink unit is fitted), and below the temporary taps. See the photo of the sink area.

 

Unfortunately this is the work of 3 different plumbers - builders dodgy plumber, another guy I had to bin, and current plumber that does turn up albeit seems to lack detailed pipe layout planning skills. As they say, a camel is a horse designed by committee. Nobody ever wants to remove anything and start again, just join something onto what is already there and bugger off saying tis all good now sir.

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Spinny

[Mr Punter]

You don't need a waste pipe behind the machine.  Plumb it into the sink waste and no big plastic pipe to worry about.  No upstand pipe needed as it uses the sink trap.  Very much a standard way to do this.

[ProDave]

I think the "problem" here is you tried to tell the plumbers how to do it, rather than discussing with them, how they would do it and taking their input.

[Spinny]

45 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I think the "problem" here is you tried to tell the plumbers how to do it, rather than discussing with them, how they would do it and taking their input.

If only that were the problem.

Unfortunately it is my experience with the plumbers I have had that:

1) they do not always seem able to work out good pipe arrangements.

I posted about my understairs piping which everyone laughed at as a botch job. Well to get that fixed I had to work collaboratively with my current plumber (and his dad who happened to come, who was better TBH). They started out wanting to put new pipework in the middle of the cupboard floor and had I just left them to it that is exactly what they would have done. One mess would have been replaced by another. By keeping a weather eye out and talking to them a proper arrangement has been achieved - some ideas from me, some ideas from them. I always ask all the trades I have what they are going to do and try to follow their advice. But as customer I have objectives and the work has to meet them. I am quite prepared to pay for the extra hour or four it might take - the building owner will be using it for 20 years.

2) they look for the quickest easiest option

I do get it. Time is money so they want to be in/out/job done/get paid. Most of the public will have no idea what they want or what they have got - as long as it works. So that is how they work. If they haven't got one thing in the van they will use another.

3) they essentially never sketch out anything they are going to do and thereby agree it first

I do get it. They are doers, advance planning on paper, then execution is an alien concept. I am a planner type, from their point of view they can have it piped while I am still sketching. Why waste time looking at the details first ? But the flip side of that is sometimes you leave something that turns out not to really work very well, but is going to sit there for 20 years with someone cursing why there is a pipe down the wall, the cupboard won't close flush, or the flow is a bit crap.

 

I think I mentioned before I had a guy come to move my gas meter a couple of years ago now. Got chatting as he had a cuppa. He said he used to be a plumber. He said he didn't make much doing it because he always wanted to give the customer what they wanted. He would be down the merchants listening to others boasting about their new SUV and how they just charged a customer £350 for changing a tap washer.

 

I am not decrying all tradespeople. People have different personalities, different objectives, you have to ask and question. Obviously I have naff all experience, so it can make it tough - sometimes trades spin you a line - you do have to stand some ground sometimes.

 

Clearly I should have drawn it all out myself first (despite having no plumbing experience) and then said that's what I want, just do it. But  TBH it is exhausting and I do resent having to do it.

 

 

[ProDave]

^^^ and the above describes why I am so keen to do it all myself, unless there is no choice (gas)

[dpmiller]

freestanding appliances are so much more forgiving