shutters - how best to hinge?

[marmic]

Morning all,

 

Another conundrum!  Plan was always brise soleil on posts independent from building - but have decided shutters will be preferable for various reasons including easy access to gutters, full blocking of the sun, and cost. (not idiot proof of course for future occupants but hey-ho, that's called natural selection!). We have leftover cladding and reveal boards so aim is something simple as example image.  But now I'm thinking about it properly struggling to decide best way to hinge - reveal boards slightly proud of cladding (as intended). Also need to keep cost down - some stainless steel hinges are crazy prices! (we need stainless steel as sweet chestnut).  Ideas would be very much appreciated please        

 

 

[JohnMo]

Why shutters?

[marmic]

 various reasons including easy access to gutters, full blocking of the sun, and cost

 

[marmic]

already have timber

[Mr Punter]

You also need to consider how to hold them open and secure them closed, gain ventilation as well as if they would be an issue should a fire break out.

[JohnMo]

Our last house had them but installed inside the window. Didn't use them much but they transform the way the house feels. But ours were built in to the window frame 200 years ago.

 

Having them inside has a number of advantages 

No wind rattling them. Or trying to pull them off the wall if not fully restrained.

Friction of the hinge is enough to hold them in any position you want when inside.

They keep heat out and in if you want.

Safety, if you are trying to get out if the building on fire you can, on the outside not sure you could.

You can add a layer insulation to the inside shutter and make it thermally ace.

 

11 hours ago, marmic said:

easy access to gutters,

Not sure I understand that point 

Edited June 27 by JohnMo

[marmic]

I still haven't worked out the hinge answer which was question number one in terms of feasibility / cost  -  holding shutters open/closed and rattling was on my mind but now highlighted (thank you both - always good to talk through  ) it's also an issue with the need for stainless steel if I'm using chestnut I already have!  Cabin hooks (silly money in stainless) won't stop the rattle and will add to it - shutter dogs expensive (and not off the shelf anywhere by the looks in stainless).  I could make dogs / latches from chestnut but not ideal and I don't have the time - need quite a few!

 

(Has to be external to stop the sun before it hits the glass cutting out unwanted solar gains in summer  /  access to gutters for cleaning and maintenance - especially as we have full on RWH!  /  windows not fire escapes).

 

Conclusion:

 

1.  Hinged shutters not as straightforward and economical as I had initially thought!

2. Sliding? Unlikely to be practical using chestnut we already have and hardware going to be expensive.  And back to rattling, and probably movement issues. Cost will be very high for something bespoke say in aluminium.

 

3.  So, therefore rapidly going back to brise soleil it seems!  I shall explore some alternatives - we could add to the Romans list!  I'm going to start another post on this........

 

 

 

 

[Russell griffiths]

Regarding the stainless steel. 
isn’t it the fixings that need to be stainless not the hardware. 
I could not see how a galvanised hinge would be a problem fitted to the face of a shutter if stainless screws that penetrate the timber are used. 
 

why not do some experiments in the garden with some off cuts. 

[marmic]

8 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

Regarding the stainless steel. 
isn’t it the fixings that need to be stainless not the hardware. 
I could not see how a galvanised hinge would be a problem fitted to the face of a shutter if stainless screws that penetrate the timber are used. 
 

why not do some experiments in the garden with some off cuts. 

I was thinking anything in contact, but yes extremely good point...... I shall be thinking further, if indeed I solve the hinge issue without it looking like a dog's dinner!  

[Russell griffiths]

Could you use parliament hinges. 
or go to france and buy what they use, they have a crank in the arm to kick the shutter out. 
 

order a set online then get your local blacksmith to knock something up. 
depends how rustic you want it. 
very common in Europe. 

[Russell griffiths]

A quick google just brought up a dozen companies making hinges just for shutters. 
most available through Amazon if in the good ol US of A

[Mr Punter]

External shutters only work with inward opening or sliding windows.

[marmic]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

External shutters only work with inward opening or sliding windows.

if you need to open the window yes - but ours would be shut keeping heat out if shutters deployed!  Air from mvhr........

 

 

[jfb]

20 hours ago, JohnMo said:

They keep heat out and in if you want.

Be interesting to know how much better external shutters perform for keeping heat out. My instinct is that it has to be quite a bit but don’t know for sure. It would be the main reason I’d consider external shutters.

[Nickfromwales]

34 minutes ago, jfb said:

Be interesting to know how much better external shutters perform for keeping heat out. My instinct is that it has to be quite a bit but don’t know for sure. It would be the main reason I’d consider external shutters.

If it’s good enough for everyone in the med, then they should be plenty good enough here.  

[Russdl]

@marmic if you are going to do shutters do louvered shutters if the primary aim is to keep the sun out.
 

Louvered shutters will still let the light in and you’ll only need to keep the sun out in the summer plus a month or two either side. 
 

If hinges are proving difficult to source, how about a rail system, a bit like out door curtains? The shutters won’t need to fit snugly if it’s just the suns UV you’re trying to defend against, so a louvered shutter each side of the window that you can just slide across when needs must would fit the bill, and be easy to open and close. 

[saveasteading]

4 hours ago, jfb said:

interesting to know how much better external shutters perform for keeping heat out. My instinct is that it has to be quite a bit

It's a lot.

The sun hits the shutter which , if metal, will be as hot as touching a car's body work. That energy would otherwise be beaming into the room.

The Spanish ones I'm familiar with are roller shutters with about 3mm of foam. The inner metal face is still very warm but I'd guess 10°C cooler already.

The heat dissipates by convection or wind , I assume.

Then there is an air gap to windows as an additional insulater.

For a timber shutter I'm guessing somewhat. It still stops the light obviously. Insulation will be much the same.

 

The difference between inside and out on a scorching afternoon can be 8,9,10 degrees. 32 out and 22 in, say. That's with masonry walls and no insulation.

That can still be too hot but gives aircon a good start if wanting to go that way.

Otherwise it's a case of flushing the cooler air through at night.

 

If a shutter is inside the room it let's lIght in. However I'm surprised how much an internal blind or curtain helps.

[marmic]

22 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

Regarding the stainless steel. 
isn’t it the fixings that need to be stainless not the hardware. 
I could not see how a galvanised hinge would be a problem fitted to the face of a shutter if stainless screws that penetrate the timber are used. 
 

why not do some experiments in the garden with some off cuts. 

so reading further need to be cautious - so probably not going to risk it. Not just corrosion to metal but nasty staining - would be a lot of work down the pan!  interesting the different thoughts - links below.  Looking back we had some black staining around fixings which would have been I am sure tiny specks of ferrous material off drill bits!  Sweet chestnut and oak have I understand very similar properties.  I have dropped a note to tdca who were very helpful previously - I'll post copy of response.

 

Have to say even finding the right screws for cladding wasn't easy!  Once you dig deeper stainless grades are also important and not always obvious.  Found some good ones in end which were also not astronomical cost!

 

 https://www.englishwoodlandstimber.co.uk/talk-tannin-oak-chestnut-cladding-beam/

 

https://oakbydesign.co.uk/blog/tannins-in-oak-buildings/

 

https://hardwoodsgroup.com/understanding-tannin-staining-in-oak-causes-and-effective-treatments/

 

 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, marmic said:

finding the right screws for cladding wasn't easy!  

Very important. There are different grades of stainless too. I would only ever buy the big names and after checking the spec.

It's not just the steel but the washer incl both the metal and rubber elements.

1 hour ago, marmic said:

Sweet chestnut and oak have I understand very similar properties.  

And cedar and anything exotic should be researched.

[marmic]

and be careful too with 'big names' - never assume as not always what it seems!

[Gone West]

8 hours ago, saveasteading said:

However I'm surprised how much an internal blind or curtain helps.

That is all we used to keep the house cool recently. It was 32.8C outside at the hottest and we closed the curtains on the west facing windows. The walls are mostly shale cob 650mm thick and the temperature inside was 25C. Opening the windows in the evening when the outside temperature was below the inside temperature, cooled it down. It has taken a while for the fabric of the building to return to normal, that's good old 'thermalmass' for you.

[sgt_woulds]

6 hours ago, marmic said:

so reading further need to be cautious - so probably not going to risk it. Not just corrosion to metal but nasty staining - would be a lot of work down the pan!  interesting the different thoughts - links below.  Looking back we had some black staining around fixings which would have been I am sure tiny specks of ferrous material off drill bits!  Sweet chestnut and oak have I understand very similar properties.  I have dropped a note to tdca who were very helpful previously - I'll post copy of response.

 

Have to say even finding the right screws for cladding wasn't easy!  Once you dig deeper stainless grades are also important and not always obvious.  Found some good ones in end which were also not astronomical cost!

 

 https://www.englishwoodlandstimber.co.uk/talk-tannin-oak-chestnut-cladding-beam/

 

https://oakbydesign.co.uk/blog/tannins-in-oak-buildings/

 

https://hardwoodsgroup.com/understanding-tannin-staining-in-oak-causes-and-effective-treatments/

 

 

 

Cut some EPDM gaskets to fit between the hardware and the boards?  And use double dipped galvenised hinges to stop any ferrous run-off (not the so called 'galvenised' stuff sold in the big sheds).

 

If using stainless screws it is also wise to pilot dill the boards before screwing them in, as stailness has a habit of rounding off or snapping the heads off - nearly always when they are 7/8 of the way in so a PITTA to remove again!

[sgt_woulds]

Why not a retractable canopy? Less faff than shutters or brise soleil.  Need about 300mm above windows to allow fixings which you have.

 

Rollar shutters fitted external to the opening and above the reveal shouldn't block access for a leaning ladder (gutter access) either.

 

If you are set on using shutters, why not fit strips of a less reactive timber either side of the windows and flush with the existing trim.  Screw non-stainless into these? (with stainless screws right through into cladding).

 

This would also spread the weight accross the Chessnut boards that already have visible shakes/splits