Kitchen alley width

[Spinny]

Any views on the reasonable minimum alley width in a kitchen between wall worktop and island worktop ?

Thinking of going down to 870mm.

[JOE187]

I have 900mm from fridge handle to island and works well for access!

[ProDave]

We have 1200mm and would not want less.  But that is because a dishwasher door opens into that gap.

[FarmerN]

870mm is fine to open a dishwasher.

At 1100mm can open dishwasher and draw in island at same time ,to unload dishwasher, but not walk between when both are open.

Not sure how it would work if it was a cupboard instead of draw.

How valuable is the space on the other side of the island? Space for dinning table ?

Compromises as ever.

[ProDave]

52 minutes ago, FarmerN said:

870mm is fine to open a dishwasher.

At 1100mm can open dishwasher and draw in island at same time ,to unload dishwasher, but not walk between when both are open.

At 1200 we can open the dishwasher and one of the drawers on the island to empty stuff into and just squeeze through the gap.

 

The minimum you can tolerate will depend a lot on what is there in your particular situation.

[Super_Paulie]

1200mm gives me this dream scenario, much like Dave. 

 

 

[Mike]

If I had a room big enough for an island, I wouldn't go down to 870mm.

[torre]

If it's a secondary walkway with an occasionally used cupboard and having an island versus say peninsula is important to you then down to about 800 is workable I'd say, as long as there's better access around the rest.

[torre]

@Super_Paulie yes that's great for working space - looks like your pinch point of island and worktop corners is an example of what I mean? Quite a bit narrower but only used for passing through.

[MikeSharp01]

4 hours ago, Super_Paulie said:

1200mm gives me this dream scenario, much like Dave

Can you maneuver a wheel in & out the end of that run? 

[Super_Paulie]

40 minutes ago, torre said:

@Super_Paulie yes that's great for working space - looks like your pinch point of island and worktop corners is an example of what I mean? Quite a bit narrower but only used for passing through.

 

25 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Can you maneuver a wheel in & out the end of that run? 

 

Might be the way the photo is, but its 900mm at that point.

 

 

[Gus Potter]

Your starting point here is to look at the building regs in terms of kitchen activity spaces. 

 

Some regs seem nuts but the activity spaces are really well thought out. I've designed loads of stuff like this and they are a great guide. 

 

If you can mark things out with tape on the floor. Be aware.. kitchen designers are not always familiar with the building regs. 

[Spinny]

1. We have gone for a double drawer dishwasher, so doesn't need so much room to open.

2. we have gone for a handleless kitchen so no knobs reducing the space

3. Everything on both sides is a pull out drawer cupboard of various types

4. Oven is slide and hide

5. Wall cupboards have rising fold upwards doors, not swing out

6. Thinking one person galley

7. 1250 free space at both ends

8, fridge not behind island

 

The other side of the island needs space for a walkway and a dining table and chairs.

Going to 870 would give us 2940 on the other side - chair space on wall side 650, table width 900, pushed in chair space 300 = 1850 - leaves 1090 walkway. With someone sat at table needing say 500mm walkway goes down to 890mm

 

See pics. PS that is oversize cardboard, not worktop. Worktop is 650 hob side and 990 island side.

 

How much room do you really need for a dining table ?

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Spinny

[Gus Potter]

27 minutes ago, Spinny said:

Going to 870 would give us 2940 on the other side - chair space on wall side 650, table width 900, pushed in chair space 300 = 1850 - leaves 1090 walkway. With someone sat at table needing say 500mm walkway goes down to 890mm

Is what you are doing subject to building regs? If so have you checked you are compliant?

 

The thing I wonder is if you have the maneuvering space: A distinct area for moving around must be provided.  

 

Best to find out now! Nice looking kitchen but I can see it's fraught with problems, the galley is too tight for two folk. "Wheel chair access is restricted.. BC issues as per the activity space. 

 

Check with BC before you go any further!

[Spinny]

Thanks for your comments Gus.

'fraught with problems' - perhaps you are misinterpreting the pics. The fridge freezer is not going at the end of the galley, it fits against the side wall at the end. The dishwasher next to it is going in the island.

It is an extension and refurb, not a new build, running under pre June 2022 building regs. There is no requirement to comply with disability requirements like raised sockets and lowered light switches etc because it is not a new build.

I can appreciate you or family may be wheelchair users so every respect for the challenges that brings, and many of us can go there though circumstance or old age. I do think designing a wheel chair kitchen is a completely different thing though.

 

The house is 1930's so has 32inch doorways, whereas today's new builds are only ever 30inch doorways. Space at either end of galley is around 1.25m by 2.8m, if that is not enough for 'moving around' I am not sure what is. If you live in a city or a flat in the UK then most (almost all) homes would fail your expectations. The room itself is 7.6m by 5.45m and I don't believe  furniture placement is subject to building regs.

 

One of us can stand at the sink or hob, and the other still walk through behind, though we expect this to be a rare event as you can walk into the galley between island and wall run from either end and the fridge is beyond the galley area.

 

Design was done with an experienced kitchen designer of course. Our original plan was for 900-910, but as I have learnt, all trades from builders, ground workers, through brickies, and plasterers will only ever produce rooms smaller than plan. A metre walkway with 30mil handles sticking out each side is already down to 940.

 

I am interested in what others have done, and on how much space a dining table and chairs needs, and a gallye needs, photos much appreciated.

[torre]

8 hours ago, Spinny said:

Going to 870 would give us 2940 on the other side - chair space on wall side 650, table width 900, pushed in chair space 300 = 1850 - leaves 1090 walkway. With someone sat at table needing say 500mm walkway goes down to 890mm

 

Having seen the photos, I'd personally want to compromise on the dining side to give more space kitchen side now I see it's the main working space.

 

A better trade off might be table width 800, or you can probably reduce walkway to 1000, probably reduce the chair space to 200 when pushed in, consider banquette dining seating to save around 150 - basically pick options and get to say 1050 for kitchen (our last house, wouldn't have wanted less - you'll wait or push past not walk around the island in real life), assuming it didn't impact the living space far end too much

[ProDave]

48 minutes ago, Spinny said:

The house is 1930's so has 32inch doorways, whereas today's new builds are only ever 30inch doorways. Space at either end of galley is around 1.25m by 2.8m, if that is not enough for 'moving around' I am not sure what is. If you live in a city or a flat in the UK then most (almost all) homes would fail your expectations. The room itself is 7.6m by 5.45m and I don't believe  furniture placement is subject to building regs.

Gus is referring to Scottish regs that need a minimum space of 1400mm by 1600mm to manoeuvre.  Requirements may be different in England. 

[Spinny]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

Gus is referring to Scottish regs that need a minimum space of 1400mm by 1600mm to manoeuvre.  Requirements may be different in England. 

Ok thanks. Wow. Are all hallways in Scotland 1400mm wide ?

[ProDave]

17 minutes ago, Spinny said:

Ok thanks. Wow. Are all hallways in Scotland 1400mm wide ?

I believe so,  Stairs are minimum 900mm and doors wider than your 30"

 

I am not up to date with the latest version, my house was built to regs 10 years ago.

[Spinny]

31 minutes ago, torre said:

you'll wait or push past not walk around the island in real life)

Do you think ? Spouse generally does the cooking and have never really cooked both together.

While that is happening others might want to access the fridge which is free to access beyond the alleyway, so cannot really see why you would choose to go up the alleyway side to get there.

 

What else might the non-cook want ? Wine from the cooler on the far end of the island - no problem, a glass or plate some of which will be in drawers on the open side of the island - no problem, food from the pull out larder which is beyond the the alleyway next to the fridge - no problem, drinking or boiling water from a revolving tap just 400mm from the open side of the island, - no problem, retreive something from the ovens which are on the far end of the alley - no problem.

Unload the drawer dishwasher which is at the far end of the alley - might clash a bit with cook going to the fridge/larder - but only intermittent.

Throw something into the recycling bins under the sink - not ideal while someone cooking.

 

Hopefully dinner guests are not going to go into the alleyway to hound the cook, just chat from the far side of the island.

 

Doesn't seem too bad ?

Edited 8 hours ago by Spinny

[Spinny]

9 hours ago, Super_Paulie said:

Might be the way the photo is, but its 900mm at that point.

That is a fab kitchen, but the room must be pretty huge there (I am guessing 5m at the narrow point and over 8m long?), and a dedicated kitchen diner ?

Is that an extractor on the beam ??

[Spinny]

22 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I believe so,  Stairs are minimum 900mm and doors wider than your 30"

Well I guess us sassenachs need some way to keep broad shouldered caber tossing barbarians invading from the north from getting into our houses 🤣

[torre]

14 minutes ago, Spinny said:

Doesn't seem too bad ?

 

Most people chipping in would lean towards more space kitchen side based on lived experience and so maybe future buyers will think the same, but at the end of the day, you're much better placed than us to know how you'll use the space and you've clearly designed for the limited space with your lift up cupboard doors and lots of drawers, so (as exhaustingly ever with our own projects) you have to trust your own decision making.

 

One possible approach would've been to tile through, not fix down the island and see how you live with it but I think that ship's sailed.

 

Very nice kitchen by the way!

[Spinny]

Yes have seen people put the island on wheels to make it adjustable.

[Super_Paulie]

8 minutes ago, Spinny said:

That is a fab kitchen, but the room must be pretty huge there (I am guessing 5m at the narrow point and over 8m long?), and a dedicated kitchen diner ?

Is that an extractor on the beam ??

not far off, 5m x 9m if you count all the way across to the dining area. No that is a splice on the beam as it is in 3 sections, the extractor is a downdraft on the hob.

For what its worth, the 1.2m i have between the units and the island is pretty big. Its great to be able to empty the dishwasher into a cupboard and i positioned/designed purposely so i could do that, but it wouldnt be a problem to have that gap smaller in my opinion to create a galley.