Ufh layout?

[junglejim]

I’m getting close to being ready to install ufh. A local company has completed a design but I’m wondering whether I should go back and request a spiral layout? The ufh will be run off ashp, the screed is liquid (ecoscreed) and build is timber frame and aiming for good airtightness etc.

i could be overthinking so looking for advice before going back to the company on Monday.

 Thanks

 

Edited 22 hours ago by junglejim

[Nickfromwales]

21 minutes ago, junglejim said:

I’m getting close to being ready to install ufh. A local company has completed a design but I’m wondering whether I should go back and request a spiral layout? The ufh will be run off ashp, the screed is liquid (ecoscreed) and build is timber frame and aiming for good airtightness etc.

i could be overthinking so looking for advice before going back to the company on Monday.

 Thanks

 

What cc have they proposed? At less than 200mm cc you cannot perform a U-turn with 16mm (pert-al) metal lined pipe. 

[BotusBuild]

I don't know why, but I don't like the idea of those pipes under the stud walls of the two right hand bedrooms.

 

Also, I don't think there is any need to have the pipes so close to each other near the manifold - the vertical bit of the blue kitchen/dining loop and top of the hall loop can be removed and then spread out the pipes from the utility, WC, bathroom and left bedroom to fill that space.

 

Spirals probably a reasonable request in the bedrooms. As you have 3 loops in the kitchen/dining the heat distribution will be reasonably even

Edited 22 hours ago by BotusBuild
Speelings

[Nickfromwales]

I’d move the manifold off the wall of the bedroom too!!

[Nickfromwales]

15 minutes ago, BotusBuild said:

I don't know why, but I don't like the idea of those pipes under the stud walls of the two right hand bedrooms.

Doesn’t bother anyone, but if there’s nobody coordinating on site then it opens up unnecessary risk.

 

@junglejim, as them to remove the hallway loop and take all the other flows and returns through that thoroughfare, as it doesn’t need its own specific loop. 
 

Expand the (return) of the porch loop into the last 1/4 of the hallway and then you can take all feeds through doorways. 

Edited 21 hours ago by Nickfromwales

[ProDave]

And don't waste time and money fitting UFH loops to the hall.  When are UFH designers going to learn that.

 

I was similarly duped and blindly followed the instructions in my first self build.  There is simply no external walls to lose heat, so the hall and landing loops NEVER turned on. Complete waste.  Sadly it shows lack of understanding by the designer which really puts me off.

 

What is going upstairs?

[Nickfromwales]

30 minutes ago, junglejim said:

build is timber frame and aiming for good airtightness etc.

Then don’t waste money on the wood burner?!?!

 

You’ll light it once, melt to death, and then use it as an ornament. If you can’t get a wood burner ‘roaring’ then the process of proper combustion and incineration doesn’t occur, so lots of nasties in the glue and off to upset the neighbours.

 

Are you allowing for that to be a room sealed / externally fed appliance? 

[junglejim]

@Nickfromwales @BotusBuild @ProDavethanks for the comments really appreciate that and a few things for me to think about.

 

CC are 150mm

Manifold: is under stairs. Curious why not there and if you have any other suggestions?

 

Also interested in advantage of going through doorways instead of through stud? Bearing in mind ufh pipe level is above the sole plate here.

 

i can see the logic of removing or reducing the hall loop but presumably that would give me an area with inconsistent temperature/control as essentially following the heat call from the rooms. Given its low temperatures run off ashp this may not be a problem. Just seen pro Dave’s comment… makes sense.

 

re the wood burner… slight bone of contention between me and my wife! But… will be externally fed and aiming for something with good heat retention to provide slow release heat. 
 

glad I asked the question as would have likely blindly followed the plan. I’ll go back on Monday with some questions.

 

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, junglejim said:

Manifold: is under stairs. Curious why not there and if you have any other suggestions?

It’ll be directly behind or to the side of the bed!

 

Maybe set some steel L section rising out of the screed and mount the manifold off the wall slightly, but I’d not want that mounted on a TF / stud of a bedroom.

 

Caveat is, that’s if it has a pump on it. Do you have an initial ASHP / plant design and specification for all this yet? 

[SimonD]

What are the property heat losses this scheme has been designed for? What are the proposed outputs of the ufh and what flow temp? What is the zoning plan the designers have suggested (red flag already). What is the plan for 1st floor heating? Are they proposing a circ pump & mixer on manifold or more sensibly electronic mixer if going with other emitters on ff?

 

Lots missing in this design to give a full picture of the system first.

[torre]

3 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

It’ll be directly behind or to the side of the bed!

Is manifold noise likely to be noticeable through a block wall? (Thinking about my own locations now!)

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, junglejim said:

externally fed and aiming for something with good heat retention to provide slow release heat. 

With experience now of the steading stove. Externally fed air makes for extremely efficient combustion with even a single log glowing brightly. The tiny amount of ash confirms the efficiency too. So it doesn't have to be a huge blaze with multiple logs as in old draughty burning boxes.

 

Is it justifiable? The steading is rentable and gorgeous,  so it's a big plus.  Although it is highly insulated the heat isn't excessive and is controllable

 Plus it's a backup in case of power outage.

 

 

 

[BotusBuild]

4 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

opens up unnecessary risk.

 

That's why 😅

[JohnMo]

4 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

You’ll light it once, melt to death

First time we lit ours, we melted. BUT, treat it low and slow, one log at a time, min air for a clear burn, let it burn almost completely repeat. 3 or 4 logs will heat whole house with ease, without melting you 

 

4 hours ago, junglejim said:

interested in advantage of going through doorways instead of through stud?

Go through doors not under wall - minimise risk.

 

1 hour ago, torre said:

Is manifold noise likely to be noticeable through a block wall? (Thinking about my own locations now!

Ours is flowing through 7 loops, but heat pump has circulation down at 7L/min, can't hear a thing now and when flow is 3x that. No pump though and do you need one - no.

 

 

[ProDave]

Re overheating with your WBS.  That is said a lot, and if heating a single room that is not huge that may well be so.

 

But our house basically has 2 rooms either side of the entrance hall, each with double doors facing each other.  So when lighting the stove all those doors are open so the stove can heat the whole house not just one room.  Like that it will burn for a few hours nicely heating the whole house without any particular space being uncomfortable.

[Nickfromwales]

3 hours ago, torre said:

Is manifold noise likely to be noticeable through a block wall? (Thinking about my own locations now!)

Not so much if it’s solid masonry, but it’s defo not a good idea to have a (pumped) manifold on a bedroom wall. I always strategise where plant / etc is going to be located, but these pumped ones are defo not ‘completely silent’ and us humans tend to try our hardest to listen for something, hear it, and then tune into it to torment ourselves forever more.

 

One clock in my living room met its maker due the the stupid-loud ticking and tocking.

 

🪦 🕰️ ☠️ 👍

[junglejim]

13 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Not so much if it’s solid masonry, but it’s defo not a good idea to have a (pumped) manifold on a bedroom wall. I always strategise where plant / etc is going to be located, but these pumped ones are defo not ‘completely silent’ and us humans tend to try our hardest to listen for something, hear it, and then tune into it to torment ourselves forever more.

 

One clock in my living room met its maker due the the stupid-loud ticking and tocking.

 

🪦 🕰️ ☠️ 👍

Sounds like good logic… but Ufh is only ground floor and fed by the ashp so my understanding was that the ashp would be doing the pumping without need for additional pumps at the manifold. Are there other complaints that will cause significant noise? It’s a timber stud wall so will add acoustic insulation too. 

[JohnMo]

4 minutes ago, junglejim said:

It’s a timber stud wall so will add acoustic insulation too

But you would do that to all internals walls anyway, so no different. We have an office the other side of the wall were the UFH manifold is located, timber stud wall - nothing the other side of the wall.

 

6 minutes ago, junglejim said:

my understanding was that the ashp would be doing the pumping without need for additional pumps at the manifold

Correct 

[saveasteading]

18 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

without need for additional pumps at the manifold

I'm no expert but we are having a big area designed at present. There are additional pumps at manifolds.

[JohnMo]

9 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

I'm no expert but we are having a big area designed at present. There are additional pumps at manifolds.

Our 4kW can put out around 20L/min of flow if required. It's currently doing around 2kW and the flow rate is around 6-7L/min. So zero need for additional pumps. We are heating 192m² UFH floor area plus a fan coil in another 24m².

 

So do you need the pumps, possibly not, assuming you are flowing the same temperature to each floor area covered by each manifold and don't need mixers. Even then your ASHP should be able to drive an electronic mixer to reduce temp to the lowest flow temp temperature, and do it all without additional pumps/buffers etc.

 

Maybe start a thread, with your details and bottom out what you do and don't need?

[JohnMo]

22 hours ago, junglejim said:

I’m getting close to being ready to install ufh. A local company has completed a design but I’m wondering whether I should go back and request a spiral layout? The ufh will be run off ashp, the screed is liquid (ecoscreed) and build is timber frame and aiming for good airtightness etc.

i could be overthinking so looking for advice before going back to the company on Monday.

 Thanks

 

For me the following comments 

The floor array hasn't been sized for room output - they have just filled the floor with pipes, so zero design effort. You should really design output to match room design loads just the same as you do with radiators. 

 

As it is designed, you may/will need room thermostats to manage overheating, this drives a buffer and other complications. Suspect you will not be able to set room temps by water flow balancing alone.

 

As mentioned dedicated hall loops aren't needed. But may be needed if you need to manage each room temperature via a thermostat.

 

WC and bathroom are next to each other, you could easily share loops. So one loop serving both rooms. To add to this, suspect the utility could also share the same loop. Take into bathroom first, then WC and the utility and then back to manifold. WC will actually need little or no heat as it's internal room surrounded with heat areas.

 

Spiral or up and down makes very little difference as dT (flow return temperature difference) is only 3 or 4 degs, plus floor temp is way below body temperature, so you will not feel it.

[saveasteading]

27 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

internal room surrounded with heat areas

with a fan drawing air from the adjacent areas every time it is used.

[Nickfromwales]

37 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

with a fan drawing air from the adjacent areas every time it is used.

Airtight, so I’m assuming MVHR, so constantly doing this.