Do I need an Architect for an Garage/Pool Outbuilding?

[phykell]

Hi,

 

I've just had a Lawful Development Certificate granted on appeal and I'm now looking at building an outbuilding which will contain a swimming pool and function as a garage.

 

I do have a very general design for the outbuilding but it's more about size/layout and appearance. It doesn't consider alternative building materials or any specifics such as how to support the roof over the swimming pool.

 

I have a very general brief - the building needs to function as a secure garage and it needs to be well-insulated to reduce heat loss from the pool which will be used all year round. I'd like the outbuilding's appearance to be that of a oak-framed structure, with a brick dwarf wall and timber cladding but the oak-frame detail only needs to be visible from the front elevation. I have wondered about it being a proper oak-frame with SIP panels for speed and insulation benefits but I'm a bit worried about security. I think the most cost-effective construction method would be cavity walls, using cheap block/concrete blocks because it's going to be clad in timber anyway. 

 

The question is, where do I go from here?

Can I just approach a builder with all of the above or do I need an architect to write it all up into a building specification (with a structural engineer's input)?

 

Do I approach an oak-frame supplier at this point?

Thanks for looking and apologies in advance for such asking such an open-ended question.

[Redbeard]

How were you proposing to address Building Regs? Even if you use the Building Notice route you will need some dwgs at some point. Even if you could just leave it with a builder (and not all builders will deal with BC on your behalf) they'd want a very tight spec, and would surely expect dwgs, or would your 'general design' set out *exactly* what you want? BTW, why are you worried about security re SIPs?

https://labcfrontdoor.co.uk/projects/garden-work/will-i-need-building-regulations-for-a-swimming-pool

 

[phykell]

1 minute ago, Redbeard said:

How were you proposing to address Building Regs? Even if you use the Building Notice route you will need some dwgs at some point. Even if you could just leave it with a builder (and not all builders will deal with BC on your behalf) they'd want a very tight spec, and would surely expect dwgs, or would your 'general design' set out *exactly* what you want? BTW, why are you worried about security re SIPs?

https://labcfrontdoor.co.uk/projects/garden-work/will-i-need-building-regulations-for-a-swimming-pool

 

Yes, that's a good point - I'd meant to mention Building Control as they need to be involved due to the scale of the outbuilding.

[ETC]

Nah - you’ll be grand - fire away.

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, phykell said:

Hi,

 

I've just had a Lawful Development Certificate granted on appeal and I'm now looking at building an outbuilding which will contain a swimming pool and function as a garage.

 

I do have a very general design for the outbuilding but it's more about size/layout and appearance. It doesn't consider alternative building materials or any specifics such as how to support the roof over the swimming pool.

 

I have a very general brief - the building needs to function as a secure garage and it needs to be well-insulated to reduce heat loss from the pool which will be used all year round. I'd like the outbuilding's appearance to be that of a oak-framed structure, with a brick dwarf wall and timber cladding but the oak-frame detail only needs to be visible from the front elevation. I have wondered about it being a proper oak-frame with SIP panels for speed and insulation benefits but I'm a bit worried about security. I think the most cost-effective construction method would be cavity walls, using cheap block/concrete blocks because it's going to be clad in timber anyway. 

 

The question is, where do I go from here?

Can I just approach a builder with all of the above or do I need an architect to write it all up into a building specification (with a structural engineer's input)?

 

Do I approach an oak-frame supplier at this point?

Thanks for looking and apologies in advance for such asking such an open-ended question.

One of the major failures here, is not testing the pool out properly after completion. 
 

It’s a bit of an imposition, but I guess if you asked nicely, and there was maybe a bbq and some beer, a few of us would be willing to accept the burden. 
 

👀🤞

[Gus Potter]

6 hours ago, phykell said:

The question is, where do I go from here?

You need to cough up and pay for an SE / Designer who knows about this stuff.

 

Try and find a designer that can hold your hand and walk you through the things that need to be considered, how you design the different bits so they fit together and work. They will also help you put together the different work packages so you pay a fair price.

 

The design and execution is much harder than you are probaby aware of. 

 

I have this on my website from Ruskin but is is worth a revisit.

 

“There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person’s lawful prey. It’s unwise to pay too much, but it’s worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money — that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot — it can’t be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”

 

 

[saveasteading]

7 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

It’s unwise to pay too much, but it’s worse to pay too little.

I think I lost some contracts from being too good at it. ie if I'd added another 10% (enough for a very nice car) I'd have een closer to the next quote got the work and the client would have benefitted too.

 

The difference being it perhaps  wasn't for exactly the same thing: it happened to be my niche thing and not the competitors'.

 

But I think Ruskin was largely right. Caveat emptor.

 

[Spinny]

You don't mention the size, but is sounds substantial.

Having watched my plank like neighbours building without construction drawings, I can only say you need a proper architect/designer/structural specifier. I don't say builders can never design, but well builders can almost never design. A camel is a horse designed by a builder etc.

There is always far more to achieving a good building than might meet the eye. Having a rough idea or a planning drawing is not going to cut it. Aesthetics are important to achieve something that doesn't look like a wart on the landscape. There are many technical aspects from opening sizes, positions etc to provide good light, to insulation, to ventilation, to acoustics, to services like power, lighting, heating, drainage, water supply. Structural engineering. Also layout and ergonomics. And many choices to make. The end result comes from the planning and thought put into it.

Thinking it out now means lines on paper and is easily changed, building without construction plans will see you missing things and blundering around, knocking things down again, or producing the most hideous object.

 

In building, if it is worth doing - it is worth doing well. The building will last for decades or centuries. In a few years time you will wish you had spent the money getting it right when prices were low.

Edited 8 hours ago by Spinny

[Spinny]

15 hours ago, Redbeard said:

BTW, why are you worried about security re SIPs?

OP appears to be in Liverpool. Barbed wire required on residential streets. And the ferrari inside perhaps.

[phykell]

15 hours ago, Redbeard said:

BTW, why are you worried about security re SIPs?

Sorry, missed this. I'm comparing to a traditional brick/block construction. SIPs, at least in the form of two thin OSB sheets separated by expanded polystyrene, seem very easy to get through with a recip saw, etc. and I plan to have all of my tools and garden machinery in there. I've read claims that this is not the case but I'm struggling to see how SIPs can measure up to a brick/block construction. However, I guess it's also the case that trying to get through a SIP wall would be extremely noisy and messy so it's unlikely that would be a preferred entry method for a burglar.

[phykell]

9 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

You need to cough up and pay for an SE / Designer who knows about this stuff.

 

Try and find a designer that can hold your hand and walk you through the things that need to be considered, how you design the different bits so they fit together and work. They will also help you put together the different work packages so you pay a fair price.

 

The design and execution is much harder than you are probaby aware of. 

 

I have this on my website from Ruskin but is is worth a revisit.

 

“There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person’s lawful prey. It’s unwise to pay too much, but it’s worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money — that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot — it can’t be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”

 

 

I fully agree and I like that quote - I must remember it 😎

 

13 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

One of the major failures here, is not testing the pool out properly after completion. 
 

It’s a bit of an imposition, but I guess if you asked nicely, and there was maybe a bbq and some beer, a few of us would be willing to accept the burden. 
 

👀🤞

All are welcome 👍

[phykell]

31 minutes ago, Spinny said:

You don't mention the size, but is sounds substantial.

Having watched my plank like neighbours building without construction drawings, I can only say you need a proper architect/designer/structural specifier. I don't say builders can never design, but well builders can almost never design. A camel is a horse designed by a builder etc.

There is always far more to achieving a good building than might meet the eye. Having a rough idea or a planning drawing is not going to cut it. Aesthetics are important to achieve something that doesn't look like a wart on the landscape. There are many technical aspects from opening sizes, positions etc to provide good light, to insulation, to ventilation, to acoustics, to services like power, lighting, heating, drainage, water supply. Structural engineering. Also layout and ergonomics. And many choices to make. The end result comes from the planning and thought put into it.

Thinking it out now means lines on paper and is easily changed, building without construction plans will see you missing things and blundering around, knocking things down again, or producing the most hideous object.

 

In building, if it is worth doing - it is worth doing well. The building will last for decades or centuries. In a few years time you will wish you had spent the money getting it right when prices were low.

Thanks - I agree with all of that.

The size is approximately 29m x 7m. It would have been even bigger if I'd been able to build over the existing external swimming pool but it's too close to the neighbour's boundary so the pool has to be reduced in width.

My original belief was that it was a very simple construction, just a long box with a dwarf wall, and timber-clad block with a traditional slate roof and guttering. I've had some large extensions built previously so I'm familiar with basic construction methods and I didn't think this would be that much different. However, over the 2+ years since the original design, I've now realised that I can't just let a builder do what he wants and that it would be impossible to find one who would be able to pull all the components together such as the pool renovation/reconstruction, plant room build, solar panel installation and roof truss calculations to allow for a vaulted ceiling rather than a flat, plastered ceiling. That and the fact that I won't be working with the builder whose (employed) architect did the initial (general) design.

[Spinny]

Bigger than my house.

Perhaps you kick a ball for a living.😁

 

Make sure you overlay the lighting plan onto the ceiling structural plan to avoid clashes.

[SteamyTea]

Having been involved with leisure club and centres, as soon as a swimming pool is involved, the job becomes a lot harder.

Whoever designs for you, will need to know their materials as they need to be corrosion resistant and able to handle relatively high temperatures and humidity at 100% all year around.

Air handling (HVAC) has to be considered at the start, not when it becomes a problem.

 

Do you really want, what I assume, is an expensive car next to a pond of chlorine?

Edited 7 hours ago by SteamyTea

[saveasteading]

I've done the building over a new swimming pool. Yes, lots of attention to detail is required. It's not all published, so you need to think through a lot of what ifs. 

Having had that experience I take note of any news articles about pools themselves . Lots of them leak and the their life seems short before they are demolished. Mostly because of unrepairable leaks or rotting structure.  This is understandable because any water tank/ basement requires highly skilled design and construction. A big pool will want to break.

 

So @phykell, your pool won't be 25m long but still has to be designed and constructed very well indeed.

And then think through the heating, condensation, draughts  detailing.

 

[phykell]

21 minutes ago, Spinny said:

Bigger than my house.

Perhaps you kick a ball for a living.😁

 

Make sure you overlay the lighting plan onto the ceiling structural plan to avoid clashes.

Admittedly big, but single-storey and mostly just a roof and four walls around an 11m x 5m pool with a three-bay garage and plant room in-between. Every square centimetre has been accounted for 😎
 

I certainly didn't kick a ball around so I'm hoping to do it all for a reasonable cost.

 

18 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Having been involved with leisure club and centres, as soon as a swimming pool is involved, the job becomes a lot harder.

Whoever designs for you, will need to know their materials as they need to be corrosion resistant and able to handle relatively high temperatures and humidity at 100% all year around.

Air handling (HVAC) has to be considered at the start, not when it becomes a problem.

 

Do you really want, what I assume, is an expensive car next to a pond of chlorine?

Yes, HVAC is a must and I intend to use a heat pump as the heat source - had great results with a heat pump on my house renovation.

There will be a plant room and shower/changing room between the pool room and the garage section plus I expect the garage to not be exactly air-tight.
 

9 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

I've done the building over a new swimming pool. Yes, lots of attention to detail is required. It's not all published, so you need to think through a lot of what ifs. 

Having had that experience I take note of any news articles about pools themselves . Lots of them leak and the their life seems short before they are demolished. Mostly because of unrepairable leaks or rotting structure.  This is understandable because any water tank/ basement requires highly skilled design and construction. A big pool will want to break.

 

So @phykell, your pool won't be 25m long but still has to be designed and constructed very well indeed.

And then think through the heating, condensation, draughts  detailing.

 

Noted.

 

Funny thing is that the existing outdoor pool was probably constructed in the early 70s, as far as we can tell, and the structure is still in perfect condition - it doesn't seem to leak at all. Let's hope I can find contractors who can achieve much the same!

[Nickfromwales]

56 minutes ago, phykell said:

Admittedly big, but single-storey and mostly just a roof and four walls around an 11m x 5m pool with a three-bay garage and plant room in-between. Every square centimetre has been accounted for 😎
 

I certainly didn't kick a ball around so I'm hoping to do it all for a reasonable cost.

 

Yes, HVAC is a must and I intend to use a heat pump as the heat source - had great results with a heat pump on my house renovation.

There will be a plant room and shower/changing room between the pool room and the garage section plus I expect the garage to not be exactly air-tight.
 

Noted.

 

Funny thing is that the existing outdoor pool was probably constructed in the early 70s, as far as we can tell, and the structure is still in perfect condition - it doesn't seem to leak at all. Let's hope I can find contractors who can achieve much the same!

The last one (indoor 15x5m) we were involved with was detailed in ICF, have you considered this? And also UFH pipes in the structure to reduce the size of plant etc.

 

Next one we’re quoting for is an outdoor, 15x5m again, and looking at ICF again for that one but with a bit more insulation layered under / around, and a bloody good motorised cover. 
 

Last indoor one we did I fitted a Recotherm 25+ air handling & dehumidification unit, which seemed a good bit of kit. 
 

We have specified large MVHR units for smaller pools (and tighter budgets) which seem to work quite well; caveat is the fans tend to need changing more frequently with those.

 

You should have an AHU which allows you to create a deficit of air pressure in the pool hall, so air naturally gets drawn into that area vs possibly finding its way ‘out’. This helps preserve build fabric and the Ferrari. 
 

Im a merc guy myself 🇩🇪 🚗 💨