Expert Witness needed...

[Mulberry View]

Some of you know about the legal issue were dealing with at the moment, our defective Zinc Roof is preventing progress on our project and has been for almost a year now.

 

We need an Expert Witness and finding one is proving difficult. Ideally, I want someone with a good understanding of metal roofing (Zinc particularly). Can anyone here suggest how we can solve this?

[markharro]

Would another competent contractor in the industry be suitable? Our contractors on our project in Edinburgh were excellent and very authoritative. Not sure if the principal would get involved in this sort of thing but I know him well and could ask.

[Mr Punter]

Is there any common ground where you and contractor could compromise? Even if it costs each of you ten grand it could be doable.  Once you go to court the cost can really escalate.

[Mulberry View]

1 hour ago, markharro said:

Would another competent contractor in the industry be suitable? Our contractors on our project in Edinburgh were excellent and very authoritative. Not sure if the principal would get involved in this sort of thing but I know him well and could ask.

 

That's certainly worth pursuing. The hard part is that our contractor is VERY well known in his industry and highly devious.

[Mulberry View]

1 hour ago, Mr Punter said:

Is there any common ground where you and contractor could compromise? Even if it costs each of you ten grand it could be doable.  Once you go to court the cost can really escalate.

 

Our contractor does not know the word 'compromise'. He is deaf and blind to any problems, he just wants his money. I know the implications of court, but I really do not see that we have a choice. I'm hoping that a proper expert report might help him to recognise that there are faults, then we can attempt to discuss some sort of settlement offer.

 

We're £45k in, the contractor does not believe he is even 1% at fault, so the alternative is walking away and taking a £45k hit and he'll still pursue us for the remaining £10k. That would finish us and the project would probably have to be sold.

[Nickfromwales]

4 hours ago, Mulberry View said:

That would finish us and the project would probably have to be sold.

No. You'd regroup and find a way to the finish line, as we don't give up.

 

Go to court and get an impartial judge to reside over these matters. It's pointless communicating any further with this individual. He clearly thinks you are down there and he is up here. I hate wankers like this tbh.

 

I had the unpleasant task of representing a client on site this week, to meet, and then formally dismiss his builder (PC) for the longest list of faux pas and errors in ignorance that I have seen for a good few years.

 

The moment he realised he could no longer bully and manipulate the client was just sheer joy. It was to the point where I almost lost it and wanted to say "do you realise I hear this shit from my 4 kids on a daily basis, so your version won't get you an inch of traction"... He flapped about, face went a bit red, then a bit of awkward silence and looking at the floor for inspiration......then he realised his time was up with bull-shitting and consuming the goodwill of another.

 

Go to court, with immediate effect. My 2 cents.

[bmj1]

If you end up in court, it sounds like the contractor has a lot more to lose. 

 

I.e. you can take him for damages for tens of thousands Vs his relatively small claim.

 

That said courts are costly, and I get the aversion to it. I'm sorry you are going through this.

[Nickfromwales]

2 minutes ago, bmj1 said:

That said courts are costly,

If you lose

 

If you win, they pay 100% of your legal costs as part of the claim.

[Gus Potter]

12 hours ago, Mulberry View said:

Some of you know about the legal issue were dealing with at the moment, our defective Zinc Roof is preventing progress on our project and has been for almost a year now.

 

We need an Expert Witness and finding one is proving difficult. Ideally, I want someone with a good understanding of metal roofing (Zinc particularly). Can anyone here suggest how we can solve this?

I have read some of your posts re this and you have my support. 

 

12 hours ago, Mulberry View said:

I want someone with a good understanding of metal roofing (Zinc particularly).

I come across this when arguing with warranty providers, it's one expert against another and often about workmanship which can be an abstract subject.. 

 

What I would do is to turn the table, look under the bonnet and see if you can skin this cat in a different way. This is a tactic I use against warranty providers when they deny / delay / defend.

 

In your case of the zinc roof I would ask them / him to demonstrate that the method of installation does not compromise the structural intergrity of the building. It's a simple question but if that is not answered then the zinc workmanship becomes a moot point. If they can't show the structure is protected then it likely has to come off and be replaced to ensure the safety of the structure. 

 

Let's say they go to court and say.. our workmanship is we think ok because we are "boys".. the judge says but you @Mulberry Vieware protected under the consumer protection act (domestic client which attracts extra protection cf a commercial client),  any work they do should not be to the detriment of the underllying structure, it must comply with the HSE 1974 act, current CDM regulations and Building regulations.. but you xyz zinc "boys" have not demonstrated that the roof you installed is compliant with the statutory regulations so until you do your argument about the actual zinc workmanship is not going to be considered.

 

So your next step is to write to them / him in this case and ask him to demonstrate that what he has done does not compromise the underlying structure. This is a fair and reasonable question. If he fails to answer this then he is on a sticky wickett. 

 

Edited Friday at 01:58 by Gus Potter

[Gus Potter]

6 hours ago, Mulberry View said:

That's certainly worth pursuing. The hard part is that our contractor is VERY well known in his industry and highly devious.

If well known then it should be no problem for him to provide the evidence that what has been installed it not detrimental to the underlying structure. 

 

If you suspect deviancy then post here as there are lots of legal and hard nosed contractors on BH that will review. 

[saveasteading]

A roof has a purpose. To keep the weather out, esp water.

If it doesn't then the fault is with the designer, or contractor, unless someone else has messed with it.

Why would 2 different ' experts' disagree on this issue?

Perhaps claims experts rather than roofing experts?

 

Otoh if one of my metal roofs had a leak, I would personally find the problem and usually it was just a screw  and I'd sort it...... ie one of the workers bodged it and another one might not resolve it properly. i.e. it's specialist.

 

If the whole roof is built wrong then that's another matter.

Excuse me not having read up on the original discussion.

 

[markharro]

14 hours ago, Mulberry View said:

 

That's certainly worth pursuing. The hard part is that our contractor is VERY well known in his industry and highly devious.

Send me a private message if you would like me to sound out the contractor we used.

[Kelvin]

9 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

If you lose

 

If you win, they pay 100% of your legal costs as part of the claim.

The problem is it also works the other way and most folk can’t afford the risk to lose. How many times do we read about court cases with enormous bankrupting costs that started off as a relatively minor problem. 

[Nickfromwales]

14 hours ago, Mulberry View said:

We're £45k in

 

1 minute ago, Kelvin said:

The problem is it also works the other way and most folk can’t afford the risk to lose. How many times do we read about court cases with enormous bankrupting costs that started off as a relatively minor problem. 

With being £45k in so far, it may be time to set a budget for legal expenses, and agree that it’s to be set fire to if the case isn’t won (vs it being lost). 

[Mulberry View]

8 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

I have read some of your posts re this and you have my support. 

 

I come across this when arguing with warranty providers, it's one expert against another and often about workmanship which can be an abstract subject.. 

 

What I would do is to turn the table, look under the bonnet and see if you can skin this cat in a different way. This is a tactic I use against warranty providers when they deny / delay / defend.

 

In your case of the zinc roof I would ask them / him to demonstrate that the method of installation does not compromise the structural intergrity of the building. It's a simple question but if that is not answered then the zinc workmanship becomes a moot point. If they can't show the structure is protected then it likely has to come off and be replaced to ensure the safety of the structure. 

 

Let's say they go to court and say.. our workmanship is we think ok because we are "boys".. the judge says but you @Mulberry Vieware protected under the consumer protection act (domestic client which attracts extra protection cf a commercial client),  any work they do should not be to the detriment of the underllying structure, it must comply with the HSE 1974 act, current CDM regulations and Building regulations.. but you xyz zinc "boys" have not demonstrated that the roof you installed is compliant with the statutory regulations so until you do your argument about the actual zinc workmanship is not going to be considered.

 

So your next step is to write to them / him in this case and ask him to demonstrate that what he has done does not compromise the underlying structure. This is a fair and reasonable question. If he fails to answer this then he is on a sticky wickett. 

 

 

Thanks for your detailed @Gus Potter. The contractor has taken the view that the installed details are all compliant because the manufacturer has issued their 'material-only warranty', though they take NO responsibility for workmanship at all. Read into that what you will.

 

The installer has literally NO interest in hearing my concerns and explaining his reasoning despite the issues I have raised.

 

I'm going to DM you as you might be able to help me.

[Mulberry View]

8 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

 

With being £45k in so far, it may be time to set a budget for legal expenses, and agree that it’s to be set fire to if the case isn’t won (vs it being lost). 

 

For us, the output of an Expert Witness report will probably define our route, it's why we want someone with deep experience of Zinc roofing, we want the outcome to be unarguable, either way. If the report deems the roof to be as fundamentally defective as we believe it is, then we hope we can assess the probability of our case and begin talks with the contractor about a settlement without going to court.

 

I'm going to talk to some Zinc installers today in the hope of finding someone who can be expertly impartial in the hope that they can be accepted by all parties as a joint expert witness.

 

[saveasteading]

7 minutes ago, Mulberry View said:

the installed details are all compliant because the manufacturer has issued their 'material-only warranty',

But the manufacturer has not inspected the installation, nor made any comment. all they've done is confirmed you bought it.

Does your expert say it is incorrectly installed? Is it?

[bmj1]

Another approach. Pay the manufacturer to come out, review the installation, and write a report confirming it has been installed in the most appalling manner and is certainly not installed in line with their installation manual.

[saveasteading]

3 minutes ago, Mulberry View said:

finding someone who can be expertly impartial

Make sure everyone (incl your lawyers) is accepting of this party before committing.

 

eg, I wasn't always convinced that an expert who our construction lawyer recommended was an utter expert. But perhaps they were on an important  list of recognised Experts.

eg an expert in the subject plus a qualified arbitrator or on that list.

 

eg I can't remember the context but one such I recall being sent to a meeting in his private home study.  After an hour he said I knew more about the subject than he did. and he charged several hundred.   

BUT the main thing was he backed us up. So I think that killed part of our non-paying client's claim.

 

My point is I think, that only an expert installer will know the context and also be willing to climb on the roof, but that may be argued against, as they aren't qualified in the necessary formal way.

 

 

[Mulberry View]

5 minutes ago, bmj1 said:

Another approach. Pay the manufacturer to come out, review the installation, and write a report confirming it has been installed in the most appalling manner and is certainly not installed in line with their installation manual.

 

The installer that did my roof is so deeply in the pockets of the whole industry, it's hard to find impartiality anywhere.

 

The local rep for the manufacturer with whom I discussed the entire situation as it was unfolding lives 15 minutes from my plot and would not come to see. They literally do not get involved in the installation. They provide standard details and general guidance, but cleverly disconnect themselves from installation issues. I have raised specific queries with them and shown them photos of what I claim are defects, they refuse to get involved.

[Mulberry View]

1 minute ago, saveasteading said:

Make sure everyone (incl your lawyers) is accepting of this party before committing.

 

eg, I wasn't always convinced that an expert who our construction lawyer recommended was an utter expert. But perhaps they were on an important  list of recognised Experts.

eg an expert in the subject plus a qualified arbitrator or on that list.

 

eg I can't remember the context but one such I recall being sent to a meeting in his private home study.  After an hour he said I knew more about the subject than he did. and he charged several hundred.   

BUT the main thing was he backed us up. So I think that killed part of our non-paying client's claim.

 

My point is I think, that only an expert installer will know the context and also be willing to climb on the roof, but that may be argued against, as they aren't qualified in the necessary formal way.

 

 

 

The installer stated early on that no expert testimony would be accepted by him as he is an expert installer and therefore his view is the end of the line. I had to remind him that this is not how the law works, but finding an Expert Witness who can top trump this guys self-righteous disposition is the challenge. There are Expert Witnesses who do not specifically specialise in Zinc roofing, I can see we won't get the full picture that we need. Then there are Zinc roofers who have all the expertise and experience, but are not classed as legal 'Expert Witness'. We have found one person who has BOTH credentials, but he and our installer are mates.

[Kelvin]

 

8 minutes ago, bmj1 said:

Another approach. Pay the manufacturer to come out, review the installation, and write a report confirming it has been installed in the most appalling manner and is certainly not installed in line with their installation manual.

I’ve had some experience of this approach although not with a metal roof. Their quality guy came out and needed some prompting from me to thoroughly check it and found a number of issues with it. This was mostly poor workmanship rather than a fundamental installation problem. The installer fixed that but I was still left with a poorly finished job in places compared to other examples I had gone to see. Ultimately the manufacturer wasn’t really interested and the installer was not willing to do anything else. We cut our losses in the end. I have the manufacturer warranty but not the installation warranty for what any of them are really worth. 

[Mulberry View]

16 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

But the manufacturer has not inspected the installation, nor made any comment. all they've done is confirmed you bought it.

Does your expert say it is incorrectly installed? Is it?

 

The installer is adamant that everything is compliant because the material manufacturer (who has ZERO interest in the installed roof) has issued their material warranty. I have raised several queries that are strongly likely to be detrimental to the longevity of the roof but of course failure of the roof due to any installed detail will fall back to the installer, so why would the manufacturer care? It's like the perfect storm of non-acceptance.

[saveasteading]

1 minute ago, Mulberry View said:

has BOTH credentials, but he and our installer are mates.

So couldn't get involved even  if they wanted.

BUT if they really are expert, and the roof really is installed wrongly then they may well tell their mate as such, and recommend some remedy and without publicity.

[Kelvin]

If it’s a general structural build  issue why do they need to be a zinc roof expert? Either a roof fits its stated purpose of keeping the weather out long term or it doesn’t.