VAT 'edge cases'

[BadgerBodger]

8 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Sure you can. But 30 mins one guy did ours. Why bother with the faff, the double checking yourself. Straight from cad drawing to actual marks on the ground.

 

It also positions house globally correct for position (longitude and latitude) and height from a given datum.

Also I see a shed load of “computer says” with engineers on site… a misinterpreted point or an incorrect layer on a complex drawing can be an extremely costly mistake… It’s like using Chat GPT, the technology is great so long as you A. Know how to use it and B know enough about it/what you are doing to interrogate the output. Amazingly, many lack skills in A, B or both! 

[G and J]

2 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

buy myself a total station

Given that you’ll have a bloody great shed to house the panel saw thingy it’ll leave you with oodles of space to store all these ‘use once’ gadgets, so that makes sense.  

[G and J]

9 minutes ago, BadgerBodger said:

Also I see a shed load of “computer says” with engineers on site… a misinterpreted point or an incorrect layer on a complex drawing can be an extremely costly mistake… It’s like using Chat GPT, the technology is great so long as you A. Know how to use it and B know enough about it/what you are doing to interrogate the output. Amazingly, many lack skills in A, B or both! 

As a financial adviser I came across people who’d planned their financial futures with spreadsheets to several decimal places of accuracy.  I think the belief was if there are enough numbers on the display then it must be right and should not be questioned.  I think there was a ‘wood for the trees’ type thing going on.

[saveasteading]

A total station is very expensive and needs skill. I've got one sitting on a shelf but use tapes for buildings. That would change if measuring hundreds of metres or on steep slopes.

I was taught by a mining surveyor. Satellites would not have been much help to him,  had they existed.

 But the skills in using a tape are always useful....and I've had a hitech surveyor make huge errors and not notice, because he didn't give it a visual (or leg- pace) check. 

 

But I acknowledge that a significant proportion of us can't do the maths.

[Jenki]

8 hours ago, saveasteading said:

But I acknowledge that a significant proportion of us can't do the maths.

As you say you can layout very accurately with the  3-4-5 rule and a knowledge or triangles. The problem with tech only approach is when the operator doesn't have the skill to gross check for errors.

[jack]

20 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Re the VAT thing - so surveyor marking our plot is VAT, builder marking out plot before doing something else is 'no VAT'. Perfectly sensible.

 

It makes sense within the logic of the system, but the system is the problem. Excluding things like professional services when they're provided alone but allowing them when they're on an invoice that has a zero-rated component leads to all sorts of weird outcomes.

 

To extend your example, if the builder had hired the same surveyer for the same price to do the same work, he'd have reclaimed the VAT charged by the surveyer, then zero-rated it on his invoice to you. However, that assumes that the invoice includes a zero-rated component in addition to the surveyer's charges. If he invoiced the surveyer's charges on to you on an invoice that doesn't include a zero-rated component, then he'd have to charge VAT.

[Oz07]

So is it a hack to build a house through ltd company and invoice yourself personally? Especially if you already have one for day to day work 

Edited 8 hours ago by Oz07

[JohnMo]

14 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

So is it a hack to build a house through ltd company and invoice yourself personally

Possibly not. You spend some money on professional fees, you can't claim vat on. So even though a limited company you still can't claim the vat back easily. You then have to do a VAT return (think every quarter) annual accounts, personal tax returns (because you are a director), corporation tax, just to maybe have a work around to recoup a few hundred, maybe a couple of thousand. Not exactly a hack (which is a stupid word)

[saveasteading]

If, say, a groundworker measures out the trenches, then the cost is included and the VAT can be recovered. 

If they choose to have someone else do it for them, then it might equally disappear into the construction cost.

[jack]

59 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

If, say, a groundworker measures out the trenches, then the cost is included and the VAT can be recovered. 

If they choose to have someone else do it for them, then it might equally disappear into the construction cost.

 

If the groundworker measures out the trenches and also digs them, then the cost of both should be zero-rated (if on the same invoice), because digging a trench is in the course of construction. Just to be clear, the VAT isn't recovered - it's never charged in the first place.

 

If the groundworker pays a contractor (or whoever) to do it for them, and then the groundworker digs the trenches, then again, the groundworker's invoice should be zero-rated. I believe that's the case irrespective of whether the contractor charges are listed on the invoice as a disbursement, or just borne by the groundworker and not separately billed on.

 

There are probably some limited situations where careful planning can allow zero-rating of services that would otherwise incur VAT. For example, if you can get design charges for your UFH onto the same invoice as installation charges, then the design is also zero-rated. Or maybe your window installer can hire the telehandler you need for installation (zero-rated to you on the same invoice as the installation charges) rather than you having to hire it yourself and pay the VAT. Or your builder could hire a portable toilet and pass the costs on to you without VAT.

I'm sure there are better examples, plus all of this assumes that the providers you're engaging are willing to play ball.

[Oz07]

3 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Possibly not. You spend some money on professional fees, you can't claim vat on. So even though a limited company you still can't claim the vat back easily. You then have to do a VAT return (think every quarter) annual accounts, personal tax returns (because you are a director), corporation tax, just to maybe have a work around to recoup a few hundred, maybe a couple of thousand. Not exactly a hack (which is a stupid word)

Yeh not worth setting up for that sake then. There would be quite a few people already working through ltd companies that could possibly make use of it though. Especially if already in construction Industry. I've done it before and have also renovated a place and been able to bill at 5% vat due to unoccupied dwelling. 

[andyscotland]

1 hour ago, Oz07 said:

Yeh not worth setting up for that sake then. There would be quite a few people already working through ltd companies that could possibly make use of it though. Especially if already in construction Industry. I've done it before and have also renovated a place and been able to bill at 5% vat due to unoccupied dwelling. 

 

Bear in mind that a company can only reclaim input VAT that is related to trading & in turn to output VAT (slight simplification).

 

If your company is supplying services to a participator in the company (e.g. director/shareholder) then it would likely need to do so at a reasonable "arms length" commercial rate e.g. by making a profit on the goods/services it is re-selling. Otherwise you get into things like deemed self-supply for VAT and payments in kind for other taxes.

 

But if you pay your company a profit element on the job, you will not be able to get it back out again without paying dividend/corporation/PAYE tax (assuming your other income is above the relevant thresholds).

 

There are ways to run things through a company that can be effective, but it needs to be carefully considered in the specific circumstance and would often be sensible to take professional advice. It's not a quick win for making small savings IMO.

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> Given that you’ll have a bloody great shed

 

No shed on the PP, but hope  to build one under permitted development

 

I guess part of the rationale for self-build is doing stuff that pleases you. It would please me to be able to survey stuff that's there accurately and lay out stuff accurately (say within 5mm) whenever I chose. But I have spent a lot of time on youtube watching machinist guys on how to get 10 micron accuracy.