Aaaarrggghhhh!

[Hecateh]

Just had a huge 'extra' that seems absolutely ridiculous but there doesn't appear to be any way round it.

 

Granted my site is sloping, and because the design is split level, the 'downstairs is cut into the ground.  BUT the structural engineer is insisting that we put a 4 deep retaining wall for foundations in engineering brick around 3 sides and across the middle where the level changes.  

 

£20k addition to estimated foundation cost on a £90k 64sqm build

[Ferdinand]

Ouch.

 

For a start, what is the "4"? Bricks, feet, metres ... ?

 

Ferdinand

 

[Jeremy Harris]

Sounds high, to me.  We had a very much bigger retaining wall built, using double rows of 220mm hollow blocks, filled with rebar and concrete, for not much more than that.  I think the base cost of our retaining wall, less the cost of the rendered finish, was around £25k or so.  There are photos in these blog entries that show the scale of it - it was around 2.5m high and the total wall length was around 42m, IIRC.

 

http://www.mayfly.eu/2013/07/part-six-there-we-were-digging-this-hole/

 

http://www.mayfly.eu/2013/07/part-seven-pouring-concrete-3/

 

http://www.mayfly.eu/2013/07/part-eight-the-wall/

[Hecateh]

56 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

Ouch.

 

For a start, what is the "4"? Bricks, feet, metres ... ?

 

Ferdinand

 

 

to make a wall 4 layers thick of brick, fleming bond, round 3 sides of building about 30metres

 

34 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Sounds high, to me.  We had a very much bigger retaining wall built, using double rows of 220mm hollow blocks, filled with rebar and concrete, for not much more than that.  I think the base cost of our retaining wall, less the cost of the rendered finish, was around £25k or so.  There are photos in these blog entries that show the scale of it - it was around 2.5m high and the total wall length was around 42m, IIRC.

 

Did give us that option but site access is difficult and pouring concrete, totally blocks access to 3 neighbours who re already p****d off

[PeterW]

Ok - questions ...

 

Is this part of the structure of the building ..? Or just a retaining wall ..?

 

If just a retaining wall, why 4 course engineering bricks as that is probably the least structurally sound way of doing this and the most expensive. 

 

If part of the building, why isn’t it just cast concrete as a semi basement ..??

 

All questions that need answering ..!

 

 

[Hecateh]

These are drawings.

 

I've got copies of all the calculations, including soil investigation and porosity which have contributed but. ovf course. they make no sense to  me.

 

Build inspector asked if we were build a nuclear bunker.  Even he thinks it is way over the top BUT the architect has had them approved by the BC  company so we're stuck I think

High Croft Bungalow b regs-007C.pdf

High Croft Bungalow b regs-005J.pdf

[Ferdinand]

Hmm. I make that about £7.5k just for the 13,000 bricks - assuming 21 high x 4 wide x 5 bricks per metre run x 30m x £600 per thousand.

 

Where to start to reduce that and the overall cost? Tricky. That would have taken Winston Churchill three months to build (apparently).

 

Since it is at ground level, can you mix the concrete with a big cement mixer or mixer bucket on a mini-digger, and use the other option? It will be more time, but may be under 20k. Or could a mini-mix lorry get on site rather than a full size concrete truck?

 

It would take more labour but that should be under £10 per hour, surely?

Ferdinand

 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Ferdinand

[PeterW]

So that’s barely to building regs on insulation (0.2 floor..??!) and trickle vents everywhere .... 

 

His trench layout and walls make no sense - trenchfill foundations would be much easier and simpler, and they could be used to create the retaining structure through the entire ground slab. 

 

Have you got the foundation plan and the calcs..?

[Barney12]

So from your drawings it would appear that these walls will be completely hidden and are purley structural so why it’s beeing specified in brick is a completely mystery to me as it’s far from the strongest or cheapest option. 

 

Go back hard and just say your not prepared to accept the proposal or the cost. The fact that the BC has signed it off is not an issue, it’s just a case of notifying the change. 

[PeterW]

+1 to what @Barney12 said but if this is structural and not visible then it doesn’t need to be engineering brick. It’s also very surprising they suggest shallow fill foundations with no rebar on questionable ground - trench fill concrete would be quick and simple and even if you stepped them at the back they would be simpler than the way it’s drawn now ... and cheaper !!

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

For the cost of rebar, I'd be putting it in regardless, especially on unknown ground. 

22 hours ago, Hecateh said:

Did give us that option but site access is difficult and pouring concrete, totally blocks access to 3 neighbours who re already p****d off

Piss them off some more, simple.  If they were building a house they'd do it to you without a second thought. Life has taught me to stop being kind to folk on the assumption that they'll be nice back, cos it rarely happens trust me. 

This is an absolutely fundamental stage of the build, so stop compromising and put your foot down. Get the concrete trucks in and time will be a healer, and when you see the neighbours blame the architect . Takes the heat off you. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Nickfromwales

[Onoff]

To be fair it's more the SE's fault, no?

 

 

[Onoff]

Just a wild, mad thought...I work on sites where concrete is pumped from ground upward up many storeys. Is it not possible to locate the concrete trucks where your neighbours still have access and pipe the stuff in?

[Stones]

Or crane concrete in using a hopper?

[PeterW]

@Hecateh talk to these guys - they have a baby truck mount pump that will be fine for what you need. 

 

http://www.retfordreadymix.co.uk/concrete-pumping.php/

[Hecateh]

Too late - my own fault I guess.

 

Builder has built loads of extensions but never tackled a new build before.  This has made SE nervous.  Plus, ground investigation people took over 2 weeks to get samples analysed which meant that builders were waiting to go.  SE has therefore done things quickly and gone overboard to compensate for inexperience in specific new build requirements.Small company so not shutting down over Christmas, excpt for the 3 main days. 

 

If they went to another job I wouldn't get them back for 3 to 4 months which I can't afford as mortgage is only for a year so I have to be in and sold my old within the year.  

 

Concrete went in yesterday and 10k engineering bricks arrived today.

 

My son is an architects technician but works long hours - out from 5,30 am to after 7 and doing his own reno at weekends so he hasn't had time to check things out for me.  He is now talking to SE to see if he can get at least a bit of leeway.  He is off now until the New Year and has offered to oversee - so fingers crossed we'll get some sort of compromise but I'm not getting my hopes with it being Christmas.  

Another, wervy expensive lesson learned I guess

 

 

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

To be fair it's more the SE's fault, no?

 

 

Just saying to use a diversionary tactic with the neighbour. Nothing against anyone just easier to smooth things over with a distraction. Have a little cry in front of them and get them feeling sorry for you. 

Theyll soon be round for coffee when you ask if they'd like to come in and see the house.....curiosity will be eating them alive. That'll break the ice. 

Then cry a bit more for good measure. . 

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Hecateh said:

Too late - my own fault I guess.

 

Builder has built loads of extensions but never tackled a new build before.  This has made SE nervous.  Plus, ground investigation people took over 2 weeks to get samples analysed which meant that builders were waiting to go.  SE has therefore done things quickly and gone overboard to compensate for inexperience in specific new build requirements.Small company so not shutting down over Christmas, excpt for the 3 main days. 

 

If they went to another job I wouldn't get them back for 3 to 4 months which I can't afford as mortgage is only for a year so I have to be in and sold my old within the year.  

 

Concrete went in yesterday and 10k engineering bricks arrived today.

 

My son is an architects technician but works long hours - out from 5,30 am to after 7 and doing his own reno at weekends so he hasn't had time to check things out for me.  He is now talking to SE to see if he can get at least a bit of leeway.  He is off now until the New Year and has offered to oversee - so fingers crossed we'll get some sort of compromise but I'm not getting my hopes with it being Christmas.  

Another, wervy expensive lesson learned I guess

 

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing it here as it's the bits that don't go so well that have the most value in a help and discussion forum. 

Ask your son to get involved and to ask questions, but not to be overbearing. 

Hope it all moves along as well as it can. 

[Onoff]

5 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Just saying to use a diversionary tactic with the neighbour. Nothing against anyone just easier to smooth things over with a distraction. Have a little cry in front of them and get them feeling sorry for you. 

Theyll soon be round for coffee when you ask if they'd like to come in and see the house.....curiosity will be eating them alive. That'll break the ice. 

Then cry a bit more for good measure. . 

 

I was just thinking the architect will likely be on site more often then the SE. Architect comes to site, neighbour collars them with a "You're the one then are you!". It'll only pee the architect off imo. Steer it'd towards the SE, the architect will jump at the chance to defer "blame".

 

Does smack of inexperience all round sadly.

[Nickfromwales]

21 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

I was just thinking the architect will likely be on site more often then the SE. Architect comes to site, neighbour collars them with a "You're the one then are you!". It'll only pee the architect off imo. Steer it'd towards the SE, the architect will jump at the chance to defer "blame".

 

Does smack of inexperience all round sadly.

+1

[Hecateh]

Neither of them will be coming any where near the site.  

Architect came twice, once before pre planning and then before actual plans.  SE has never even been, which is a big part of the reason that he has massively over specced.

Matt (my son) has been for a couple of hours this morning.  Had a good long chat with the builder and they have worked out how it is going to go, where there are grey areas that savings can be made without damaging integrity.  Agreed builder does know what he is doing but doesn't speak 'architect/structural engineer' language.  

 

Matt going to speak with SE with adaptations that, more or less, maintain what he has said - and some alterations to the plans that architect has drawn that just don't work.  (what a surprise!)

 

No one else will be coming out until damp proof check (builder got to take photos though), by which time, a lot of stuff will be hidden - will still be over specced but will save about a quarter (like 400 mm tapering to 375).  There will be no surprise visits over Christmas and New Year - people have got better things to do.

 

@Onoff @Nickfromwales

Definitely inexperience all round.  Mostly on my part.  

 

 

 

[Lesgrandepotato]

From another point of view, looks like this one might be gone too far to turn around. Better to stress on what can be changed than what cannot. 

Better use of your lads time to review the going forward stuff instead of the back?

[Hecateh]

4 minutes ago, Lesgrandepotato said:

From another point of view, looks like this one might be gone too far to turn around. Better to stress on what can be changed than what cannot. 

Better use of your lads time to review the going forward stuff instead of the back?

 

Yeah - that's what we're doing.  Bitter taste but too late to stress, It is what it is now - One thing - I'll have almost a nuclear bunker once it's finished

I could live for two years on 20k though

[Onoff]

12 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

For the cost of rebar, I'd be putting it in regardless, especially on unknown ground. 

Piss them off some more, simple.  If they were building a house they'd do it to you without a second thought. Life has taught me to stop being kind to folk on the assumption that they'll be nice back, cos it rarely happens trust me. 

This is an absolutely fundamental stage of the build, so stop compromising and put your foot down. Get the concrete trucks in and time will be a healer, and when you see the neighbours blame the architect . Takes the heat off you. 

 

I'd be doing whatever it takes but keeping them on side. You never know when you might want a bit of extra security as in keeping an eye on the place or taking a delivery etc!

 

Dunno about you but I get on alright with my neighbours!

[Nickfromwales]

If they're already pissed off, see quote earlier, then it must show. I get on great with my Neigbours, and we muck in when someone wants to do something, not moan and groan. If they're getting on well, great, but my point is not to struggle or compromise purely because the Neigbours are kicking off.