ASHP installation costs..

[zzPaulzz]

I admit I know nothing about the effort and additional costs involved with installing and commissioning an ASHP so bear with me if this question is stupid.  

For £5k (excl VAT) I can buy a Vaillant aroTherm plus 5kW and a pre-plumbed 250L cylinder.  A local heating company wants £9400 to install and commission it (£6.9k after the BUS). 

Does that seem reasonable, allowing for a bit of profit?  The ASHP will be installed outside my plant room and plumbed directly to the cylinder within the plant room and previously installed UFH, so a really simple install. 

 

[MikeSharp01]

Sadly this appears NOT to be reasonable but sadly it seems to be par for the course. We have had quite a few discussions about this on here and the conclusion is usually the same. Anecdotally the grant just adds to the normal, whatever that is, price. You do need to remember that there is a thing called supply and demand which brings a few more challenges. Firstly high demand often brings a lot of sub standard supply - so we see a lot of expensive but poor quality as companies bundle into the vacuum. So finding a reliable installer adds to one's angst. Secondly because a "proper" (note the quote marks) install needs MCS approval which drags in over specification which amplifies the issue above so increasing costs. 

 

You do have some options. For a saving on an MCS install seek out an umbrella scheme- which allows you to do a load of the work and the MCS installer just does the design and commissioning drawing down the grant for you. Alternatively do it all yourself with some advice on here to help you size the pump a local plumber and electrician to wire it all up. It will need planning permission to go this route.

 

 

[nod]

Most are factoring in the BUS grants 

I would guess that if there was no grants There prices would drop by thousands Or they would go out of business 

 

We paid 5k on top of the BUS grant Making it pointless to go down any other route 

Edited Friday at 17:42 by nod

[zzPaulzz]

I posted my question to the FB Heat Geek group and two installers said they’d expect to charge £10-12k for the job before the BUS grant.  Seems to be the going rate so at least I have some grounds to push back on my installer. He does seem to know his stuff though. I could go down the umbrella scheme route too. Where would I find such a scheme? 

[JohnMo]

Just buy yourself a Panasonic to suit your heat needs about £3.5k, cylinder2go heat pump cylinder about £1200 from memory.

 

Find a plumber to join it together with a 28mm 3 port diverter valve between cylinder UFH. If only UFH no need for mixer or pump. Expansion vessel and relieve valve after tee from cylinder return and a filling loop and a strainer. That's about all you need. So where these rip off merchants get the prices no idea.

 

I just did myself, I paid £1300 (ASHP), £1000 for cylinder and another £600ish for stuff. Spent a few days installing. Got electrician to do wiring hook up. Zero faff, bought what I wanted, no justification about sizing etc.

[nod]

3 hours ago, zzPaulzz said:

I posted my question to the FB Heat Geek group and two installers said they’d expect to charge £10-12k for the job before the BUS grant.  Seems to be the going rate so at least I have some grounds to push back on my installer. He does seem to know his stuff though. I could go down the umbrella scheme route too. Where would I find such a scheme? 

Sounds about right 

We where charged 12k minus the grant for an 11 KW Mitsubishi Three quotes where similar ALL preferred Mitsubishi Better Less problematic Easier to install Or do the installers get a better markup from Mitsi 

[zzPaulzz]

@JohnMo That is so tempting, really. 

Edited Friday at 22:05 by zzPaulzz

[Dillsue]

7 hours ago, zzPaulzz said:

@JohnMo That is so tempting, really. 

Is yours a new build with plumber and spark on site already?

 

With the BUS MCS umbrella schemes you can end up getting all the components, design and commissioning free with you just covering the install costs. Down side is you get what the supplier decides you need and not necessarily what you want/need. I looked at Cleanenergy where everything other than install would have been free but the pump they offered was way oversized and running costs would have been excessive so I'd be paying for their system for ever! I've just started on a self funded/self installed system with a used Therma V pump picked up off ebay:)

Edited yesterday at 05:34 by Dillsue

[zzPaulzz]

Mine is a new build.  Just getting out of the ground so no plumber or sparky on site yet

[Beau]

14.5K here after the grant for Vaillant aroTherm plus 7kW, hot tank, 11 rads and all plumbing. I'm sure they made a hansom profit but unless you are ballsy enough to design and do it yourself they have you by the short and curly's. 

[zzPaulzz]

Maybe @Beau, though it's really hard to compare.  My quote is £7k less but does not include rads and plumbing. Do you feel the extra work was worth £7k?

[Conor]

Our install was a total of 6 man-days, £1200. Installing a monoblock ASHP, pre-plummed cylinder, buffer and a couple of manifolds is easy. And also laying a few hundred metres of UFH. I really dont know what these guys charging £5k+ are doing.

[JohnMo]

9 minutes ago, Conor said:

really dont know what these guys charging £5k+ are doing

You do really - they are busy and just doing high paying work. Quote everyone high, the richer mugs will pay, so we will keep doing that work, until it dries up 

[zzPaulzz]

I think this is what's galling me.  I can buy the ASHP and tank for £5k.

16 minutes ago, Conor said:

Our install was a total of 6 man-days, £1200. Installing a monoblock ASHP, pre-plummed cylinder, buffer and a couple of manifolds is easy. And also laying a few hundred metres of UFH. I really dont know what these guys charging £5k+ are doing.

 Add your £1.2k and I'm not far off the £6.9k the installer wants.. after the BUS grant. So I can only assume they pocket the grant as pure profit. 

I guess the sums still work for me, and I get a heat geek registered installer with service guarantee and less of a headache... so this is probably still the way I will go. 

Edited yesterday at 08:31 by zzPaulzz

[Nick Laslett]

11 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Just buy yourself a Panasonic to suit your heat needs about £3.5k, cylinder2go heat pump cylinder about £1200 from memory.

 

Find a plumber to join it together with a 28mm 3 port diverter valve between cylinder UFH. If only UFH no need for mixer or pump. Expansion vessel and relieve valve after tee from cylinder return and a filling loop and a strainer. That's about all you need. So where these rip off merchants get the prices no idea.

 

I just did myself, I paid £1300 (ASHP), £1000 for cylinder and another £600ish for stuff. Spent a few days installing. Got electrician to do wiring hook up. Zero faff, bought what I wanted, no justification about sizing etc.

@zzPaulzz, like JohnMo, I did my install myself. Electrician connected it up. I went with Sunamp, to avoid G3. But a pre-plumbed UVC is easy for a G3 registered plumber to fit. Just a days work. We had a UVC fitted in our rental to replace the gravity fed system and it took the plumber a day. 
 

Secon Renewables have all the guides to most major brands. 
 

https://www.seconrenewables.com/heat-pump-technical-manuals-962-c.asp

I went with Panasonic because at the time I thought their install guide was the easiest to understand. 
 

 

For a new build, you will be designing in the requirements for the ASHP. I can appreciate with retrofit there is more value a heating engineer can add. Questions like heat loss, water volume, etc, you should be able to answer, so spec of ASHP is much easier. You will also control how all this stuff comes together, so UFH manifold, UVC will all be in same place. The ASHP is only 2 pipes, 2 power cables and a control cable. 

Edited yesterday at 08:39 by Nick Laslett

[JohnMo]

8 minutes ago, zzPaulzz said:

guess the sums still work for me, and I get a heat geek registered installer with service guarantee and less of a headache... so this is probably still the way I will go. 

 

10 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Quote everyone high, the richer mugs will pay, so we will keep doing that work

Sorry my view, they are taking the p!ss with mine and your tax money, they don't deserve the trade. And that's my highly editted version.of my real thoughts.

[zzPaulzz]

11 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

 

Sorry my view, they are taking the p!ss with mine and your tax money, they don't deserve the trade. And that's my highly editted version.of my real thoughts.

Yes, totally agree.  I can only hope that the greed drives the industry to retrain and retool over the long term so that when the bucket is empty there's enough momentum to sustain the change. 

[zzPaulzz]

21 minutes ago, Nick Laslett said:

For a new build, you will be designing in the requirements for the ASHP. I can appreciate with retrofit there is more value a heating engineer can add. Questions like heat loss, water volume, etc, you should be able to answer, so spec of ASHP is much easier. You will also control how all this stuff comes together, so UFH manifold, UVC will all be in same place. The ASHP is only 2 pipes, 2 power cables and a control cable. 

Exactly!

[S2D2]

Mine was £2.2k after BUS from Octopus, 8 rads. About 8 man days of labour.

 

Get some more quotes, many companies are openly overcharging because some people will pay it.

[SteamyTea]

4 hours ago, Conor said:

really dont know what these guys charging £5k+ are doing.

Cocaine and hooker.