Structural warranty company dilemma

[Amateur bob]

i heard a lot of good reviews about proteck online and signed up with them online for their structural warranty, the house is now being built and a surveyor came up to do his first inspection, he then asked for the name of the principal designer or architect, i said their wasnt one

 

this is now causing an issue as theyre saying they need an architect to sign something to say they stand on the design etc and any defects in the future so that ifi claim off protek they can then sue the architect, is this really how it works?

 

a friend in the housing trade did all my drawings and got it all passed through the building warrant etc but hes no insurance for this type of thing and rightly doesnt want sued, is there any way round such a dilemma? ive paid £3400 for this

 

thanks

[SBMS]

  On 25/03/2025 at 17:46, Amateur bob said:

i heard a lot of good reviews about proteck online and signed up with them online for their structural warranty, the house is now being built and a surveyor came up to do his first inspection, he then asked for the name of the principal designer or architect, i said their wasnt one

 

this is now causing an issue as theyre saying they need an architect to sign something to say they stand on the design etc and any defects in the future so that ifi claim off protek they can then sue the architect, is this really how it works?

 

a friend in the housing trade did all my drawings and got it all passed through the building warrant etc but hes no insurance for this type of thing and rightly doesnt want sued, is there any way round such a dilemma? ive paid £3400 for this

 

thanks

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Did your building control not ask who was acting as principal designer for building control?

[Mr Punter]

You need a suitably qualified professional with professional indemnity insurance to design the structure.

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> is this really how it works?

 

You might be forgiven for thinking that the insurance company will do everything in its power to avoid paying out. No?

[SBMS]

  On 25/03/2025 at 17:46, Amateur bob said:

claim off protek they can then sue the architect, is this really how it works?

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Latent defect warranty providers can look to hold architects liable if the building was improperly designed. Don’t forget that a structural warranty is primarily an insurance policy so typically your warranty underwriter would look to negotiate directly with your architects professional indemnity insurer to settle. 
 

We used self build zone and they also asked for the name of the architect/principal designer. I’m not sure whether this was so that they could ‘sue’ them further on down the line, but I suspect it was more of a means for them to assess the risk of the project in quoting a premium or deciding whether to provider cover or not. 

 

What I would say is that if protek Didn’t make clear they required this up front you might be able to cancel the policy and get a refund but that wouldn’t help if you actually need the policy for an onward or current mortgage. 
 

Also - am surprised your BCO didn’t pick up that you don’t have a building regs principal designer. Ours asked for detail on who they were as this is a requirement of building control now in England. 

[Amateur bob]

  On 25/03/2025 at 20:26, SBMS said:

Did your building control not ask who was acting as principal designer for building control?

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a structural warranty company signed off on drawings its more for getting a person thats liable so they can sue them if i make a claim against protek by the sounds of things

[Amateur bob]

  On 25/03/2025 at 20:45, Mr Punter said:

You need a suitably qualified professional with professional indemnity insurance to design the structure.

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this is the issue the drawings were done by a friend in the industry who knew wat he was doing and had the software, then passed onto a structural engineer who did the detailed drawings for the building warrant stage, do you think the structural engineer might be able to help sign something here for the protek guys?

[Amateur bob]

  On 25/03/2025 at 22:35, SBMS said:

Latent defect warranty providers can look to hold architects liable if the building was improperly designed. Don’t forget that a structural warranty is primarily an insurance policy so typically your warranty underwriter would look to negotiate directly with your architects professional indemnity insurer to settle. 
 

We used self build zone and they also asked for the name of the architect/principal designer. I’m not sure whether this was so that they could ‘sue’ them further on down the line, but I suspect it was more of a means for them to assess the risk of the project in quoting a premium or deciding whether to provider cover or not. 

 

What I would say is that if protek Didn’t make clear they required this up front you might be able to cancel the policy and get a refund but that wouldn’t help if you actually need the policy for an onward or current mortgage. 
 

Also - am surprised your BCO didn’t pick up that you don’t have a building regs principal designer. Ours asked for detail on who they were as this is a requirement of building control now in England. 

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regarding BCO i did technically have a principle designer who had the software and did the drawings but he doesnt have professional indemnity insurance

[EdHat]

How are you getting on with this?

 

I've done my own drawings and am currently trying to get the self-build mortgage sorted. The lender has said i must have a Warranty, not Professional Consultants Certificate (PCC), because I've done my own drawings. The warranty is over twice the price of the PCC. Seems a warranty provider won't accept me doing my own drawings anyway though. 

 

I've made enquires with a few warranty/PCC providers. ABC+ didn't seem to mind when i said I'd done my own drawings so you could try them.

 

If the structural engineer did the detailed design then definitely try them. The principle designer role is concerned with the detailed design for building warrant/regs not planning drawings.

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> Seems a warranty provider won't accept me doing my own drawings anyway

 

I'm in the same position - possible to say who wouldn't accept that setup?

[Gus Potter]

  On 25/03/2025 at 17:46, Amateur bob said:

a friend in the housing trade did all my drawings and got it all passed through the building warrant etc but hes no insurance for this type of thing and rightly doesnt want sued, is there any way round such a dilemma? ive paid £3400 for this

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Hi bob.

 

Hope this lift your spirits a bit. Firstly 99.99% of designers don't set out to do a bad job. Your friend has probably gone the extra mile with the details so there is probably some value in that. Also, if you have issues during the build your friend may become your best friend (if not already) as they will often be "on tap" so to speak and that, even in itself, could easily offset any money you have paid.

 

  On 25/03/2025 at 20:45, Mr Punter said:

You need a suitably qualified professional with professional indemnity insurance to design the structure.

Expand  

In the UK (in terms of the building regs) it boils down to your design being undertaken by someone who is competent. In Bob's case his friend is probably highly competent. They can demonstrate this by producing drawings to a high standard, producing drawing details that identify critical parts of the design [could be structural (SE stuff) or weathering details (Architect stuff)] that lets someone who is checking the design see that there is competency in play. 

 

The crux of the matter is how warranty providers take a view on the risk they are underwriting.

 

  On 26/03/2025 at 08:25, Amateur bob said:

then passed onto a structural engineer who did the detailed drawings for the building warrant stage, do you think the structural engineer might be able to help sign something here for the protek guys?

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Yes, I think your SE will get you sorted.. see below... if you can hang in with my submission and observations..

 

  On 04/04/2025 at 17:05, Alan Ambrose said:

I'm in the same position - possible to say who wouldn't accept that setup?

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To make headway here I go back go back first.... excuse the spelling and grammer folks.. please.

 

I wear two hats. My main hat is the SE hat, the other is my Architectural Designers hat. My professional indemnity insurance premium (if I try and split it out) as an SE is about 4 - 5 times more than when I have my Architectural designers hat on. Each year, to renew my PI insurance, I have to fill in a form that splits up the design work I do into various categories, one of these is "Architectural" design. Now most SE's will allocate a percentage value to this more than zero, it might be only 1% but that covers you in case you inadvertantly stray into say @ETC's world. In my case the % is more but I'm not going to tell you what that is. 

 

In summary @Amateur bob this means that the SE may be able to say..ok.. I'll tack it all together and take the Architectural design liability on... with a few standard caveats. 

 

If you (bob) came to me out of the blue as the SE / Designer I would say ok.. lets have a look at what your warranty provider is asking for and is it reasonable. I would want to know a bit about you also. 

 

We would have a chat.. you want me to cover the design under my insurance. I might say,  I'll cover you and our contract is between us only.. can you live with that, you may say yes and, that gets recorded. If it turns out later that you sold the house on promptly and I get some random chancer sending me notification of claim, then in the first instance I'll tell you to take a hike. If you want to do this selling on (developing) then you need a collateral warranty and that comes at a cost, its often not a crippling amount but what I don't want is some hard arsed chancer with a tame laywer running up my clock to get a few quid out of me. In other words if you want your pals SE to consider you then you need full transparency.

 

Now for all. One of the privileges of being an SE is that the warranty providers know that we carry lots of insurance. If things go wrong then we are often the first target, they go for the low hanging fruit. Often other folk.. your contractor might have gone bust.. SE's and Architect's can be the last folk standing so we get the blame for everything.

 

The easy way as others have said is to think about this in terms of gambling and bookmakers. Bookmakers and warranty providers will often lay off the risk... but they need the business. They can lay off the risk to the self builder and make conditions.. but then too many and the self builder will go elsewhere. There are plenty folk that do their own drawings.. or get drawings from sub contractors.

 

For me I provide to my Clients a copy of my professional indemnity insurance on request. If the warranty provider asks for detail I can provide a bit of that also.. enough to show that my insurer's are actually covering the things I have designed. For example.. it's not worth my while designing swimming pools.. I have no cover for that. When I was younger I designed stuff for the Nuclear Industry.. but my employer held the cover..the premiums were I understand large.. but not as large as you think..say 50% more! story for another day.

 

What I won't and are not allowed to do by my insurer to do is to provide you with chapter and verse of the forms I fill in each year. This has no bearing.. it's a private commercial transaction between me, my company and insurer. The warranty providers know the rules so don't let them try and pull the wool over your eyes.

 

Ok to finish on a high note @Amateur bob I have a friend and colleague who was an outstanding award winning Architect but has got to an age where he wants to still keep his hand in.. but just wants to spend more time with his grand kids. To keep up his Architect's registration is a lot of work. I've done his SE designs for a long time. We are starting to change the way we work together where I take on more of the day to day tasks, take on more liability under my PI cover.. BC compliance etc. But he is still competant and see if I get stuck I'm straight on the phone for advice!

 

If you have BC permission and sign off but no other designer that can take help lay off the warranty provider's liability then just send them the cv of your pal, state what the SE has done and what they cover and ask for a quotation. At least that gives you a benchmark. You'll be getting "the computer says no" treatment maybe.. but insurers are there to make money.. like bookmakers.. if there is a bargin to be struck they will do it!

 

 

 

 

 

[Amateur bob]

  On 04/04/2025 at 20:21, Gus Potter said:

Hi bob.

 

Hope this lift your spirits a bit. Firstly 99.99% of designers don't set out to do a bad job. Your friend has probably gone the extra mile with the details so there is probably some value in that. Also, if you have issues during the build your friend may become your best friend (if not already) as they will often be "on tap" so to speak and that, even in itself, could easily offset any money you have paid.

 

In the UK (in terms of the building regs) it boils down to your design being undertaken by someone who is competent. In Bob's case his friend is probably highly competent. They can demonstrate this by producing drawings to a high standard, producing drawing details that identify critical parts of the design [could be structural (SE stuff) or weathering details (Architect stuff)] that lets someone who is checking the design see that there is competency in play. 

 

The crux of the matter is how warranty providers take a view on the risk they are underwriting.

 

Yes, I think your SE will get you sorted.. see below... if you can hang in with my submission and observations..

 

To make headway here I go back go back first.... excuse the spelling and grammer folks.. please.

 

I wear two hats. My main hat is the SE hat, the other is my Architectural Designers hat. My professional indemnity insurance premium (if I try and split it out) as an SE is about 4 - 5 times more than when I have my Architectural designers hat on. Each year, to renew my PI insurance, I have to fill in a form that splits up the design work I do into various categories, one of these is "Architectural" design. Now most SE's will allocate a percentage value to this more than zero, it might be only 1% but that covers you in case you inadvertantly stray into say @ETC's world. In my case the % is more but I'm not going to tell you what that is. 

 

In summary @Amateur bob this means that the SE may be able to say..ok.. I'll tack it all together and take the Architectural design liability on... with a few standard caveats. 

 

If you (bob) came to me out of the blue as the SE / Designer I would say ok.. lets have a look at what your warranty provider is asking for and is it reasonable. I would want to know a bit about you also. 

 

We would have a chat.. you want me to cover the design under my insurance. I might say,  I'll cover you and our contract is between us only.. can you live with that, you may say yes and, that gets recorded. If it turns out later that you sold the house on promptly and I get some random chancer sending me notification of claim, then in the first instance I'll tell you to take a hike. If you want to do this selling on (developing) then you need a collateral warranty and that comes at a cost, its often not a crippling amount but what I don't want is some hard arsed chancer with a tame laywer running up my clock to get a few quid out of me. In other words if you want your pals SE to consider you then you need full transparency.

 

Now for all. One of the privileges of being an SE is that the warranty providers know that we carry lots of insurance. If things go wrong then we are often the first target, they go for the low hanging fruit. Often other folk.. your contractor might have gone bust.. SE's and Architect's can be the last folk standing so we get the blame for everything.

 

The easy way as others have said is to think about this in terms of gambling and bookmakers. Bookmakers and warranty providers will often lay off the risk... but they need the business. They can lay off the risk to the self builder and make conditions.. but then too many and the self builder will go elsewhere. There are plenty folk that do their own drawings.. or get drawings from sub contractors.

 

For me I provide to my Clients a copy of my professional indemnity insurance on request. If the warranty provider asks for detail I can provide a bit of that also.. enough to show that my insurer's are actually covering the things I have designed. For example.. it's not worth my while designing swimming pools.. I have no cover for that. When I was younger I designed stuff for the Nuclear Industry.. but my employer held the cover..the premiums were I understand large.. but not as large as you think..say 50% more! story for another day.

 

What I won't and are not allowed to do by my insurer to do is to provide you with chapter and verse of the forms I fill in each year. This has no bearing.. it's a private commercial transaction between me, my company and insurer. The warranty providers know the rules so don't let them try and pull the wool over your eyes.

 

Ok to finish on a high note @Amateur bob I have a friend and colleague who was an outstanding award winning Architect but has got to an age where he wants to still keep his hand in.. but just wants to spend more time with his grand kids. To keep up his Architect's registration is a lot of work. I've done his SE designs for a long time. We are starting to change the way we work together where I take on more of the day to day tasks, take on more liability under my PI cover.. BC compliance etc. But he is still competant and see if I get stuck I'm straight on the phone for advice!

 

If you have BC permission and sign off but no other designer that can take help lay off the warranty provider's liability then just send them the cv of your pal, state what the SE has done and what they cover and ask for a quotation. At least that gives you a benchmark. You'll be getting "the computer says no" treatment maybe.. but insurers are there to make money.. like bookmakers.. if there is a bargin to be struck they will do it!

 

 

 

 

 

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good morning Gus thanks for the feedback, i have already paid the protek warranty which was over 3k, when the guy came up from england for inspection of the slab he asked who the principal designer was and i told him my mate who he then phoned up but he had no PII so wasnt able to do it, next i had contacted the SE firm and the guy who inspected the trenches to see if he would take on the role, he said he would check his PII and get back to me that was 2 weeks ago, i tried to phone him on Monday but no reply, are there and structural engineers or architects i could get to look over the drawings and take on the role for a fee perhaps?

[Amateur bob]

  On 04/04/2025 at 14:22, EdHat said:

How are you getting on with this?

 

I've done my own drawings and am currently trying to get the self-build mortgage sorted. The lender has said i must have a Warranty, not Professional Consultants Certificate (PCC), because I've done my own drawings. The warranty is over twice the price of the PCC. Seems a warranty provider won't accept me doing my own drawings anyway though. 

 

I've made enquires with a few warranty/PCC providers. ABC+ didn't seem to mind when i said I'd done my own drawings so you could try them.

 

If the structural engineer did the detailed design then definitely try them. The principle designer role is concerned with the detailed design for building warrant/regs not planning drawings.

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i contacted the SE 2 weeks ago but not heard back yet, i have a mortgage secured on some farmland to get the house built but ill want to remortgage onto a standard residential mortgage once its done, not many will lend without a structural warranty? i do have a Certificate of Design signed by the structural engineer to say its all designed up to standard would that help?

[Amateur bob]

  On 04/04/2025 at 17:05, Alan Ambrose said:

>>> Seems a warranty provider won't accept me doing my own drawings anyway

 

I'm in the same position - possible to say who wouldn't accept that setup?

Expand  

did you get a structural engineer to do the detailed ones for the building warrant?

[Amateur bob]

  On 04/04/2025 at 14:22, EdHat said:

How are you getting on with this?

 

I've done my own drawings and am currently trying to get the self-build mortgage sorted. The lender has said i must have a Warranty, not Professional Consultants Certificate (PCC), because I've done my own drawings. The warranty is over twice the price of the PCC. Seems a warranty provider won't accept me doing my own drawings anyway though. 

 

I've made enquires with a few warranty/PCC providers. ABC+ didn't seem to mind when i said I'd done my own drawings so you could try them.

 

If the structural engineer did the detailed design then definitely try them. The principle designer role is concerned with the detailed design for building warrant/regs not planning drawings.

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good afternoon, how are u gettin on with this? ive heard nothing back from the structural engineer yet

[Gus Potter]

  On 09/04/2025 at 06:52, Amateur bob said:

good morning Gus thanks for the feedback,

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Hello Bob.

 

I've not been tracking this thread much and have been busy with the day job. I'm assuming you are in Scotland? A few comments as best I can which may relate to your build. I've made a few assumptions, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

To get your building warrant I think you got your pal to do the drawings (call these the Architectural Drawings) and for the structural design you went the SER route and got an SER certificate from an SE? As an aside there is another route which I use and that is to submit structural calculations to BC who then get their in house Engineers to check. It's not true that you must have an SER registered Engineer to do self builds in Scotland. Either way the process in Scotland is much more rigerous than often in England and the warranty providers often do not recognise this.. particularly if you have a case handler that knows little about the diffrent ways the Scottish system works. What can often work is to educate and lead them through the process.. you can instill confidence that you know what you are doing.

 

  On 09/04/2025 at 06:52, Amateur bob said:

when the guy came up from england for inspection of the slab he asked who the principal designer was

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The warranty folk are trying to do is to limit the worst of their exposure. After a while on Buildhub you get to see the folk who want to do things properly and at the other end there are those that cut every corner under the sun and bend the rules. Now Protek call you up and ask if there is a Principle Designer. Under my PI cover I have an element that allows me to act as PD, but always within the limit of my compentence. My insurers ask what experience I have and to wrap the PD bit up they say ok.. Gus we will cover you so long as you excercise reasonable skill and care. If you run about and do daft things we will not pick up the tab. Now the same ethos applies all the way down the food chain to the self builder.

 

But the remit of a PD does not extend to ensuring what is shown on the drawings is actually built properly on site!

 

Now @Amateur bob the same rules apply to you and you can use them in principle I think to solve the problem you have.

 

1/ You have a building warrant.

 

2/ You have a structural design.

 

3/ You need to be able to demonstrate that you have built everything in accordance with the drawings.

 

How do you do that in Scotland? Well when you get a building warrant in Scotland there is a bit called the Construction Notification Plan (CNNP). This means that you have to notify BC where you are at and they often come out to inspect. @Kelvin may be able to offer some help here as will @saveasteading. If you educate your insurance case handler on the Scottish process then that may be enough to get you over the line. You can also add loads of photos to show you are being dilligent and following the design drawings, employing where you can competent builders and so on.

 

To get a completion certificate in Scotland you often need,if going down the SER route, a thing called a form Q. You can get the warrant to start the work but the SER Engineer needs to see all the design calcs from everyone that has a hand in the design. A good example is calculations for roof trusses which are not available at the start of the job. If all this info is not forthcoming at the end of the job and gets the SER approval then no completion certificate from BC... and then you are totally stuffed. This is where I gain an advantage over the SER route in that I'm doing all the calculation work up front most of the time.

 

@Amateur bobOn no account offer up the below until push comes to absolute shove! as it will cost you money. I think you can navigate this ok without getting into a bind. You are not the first Scottish selfbuilder that has encountered this issue so take heart from that.

 

But say that does not work and it goes nuclear! One option is..

 

You could call me for example. I would intially ask for all the design information and site photographs,  spend say a day reviewing that. I would then come to site and look about.. ask you to walk me through how you have got to where you are, listen lots and then ask you lots of questions! I would then provide a evidence based report on what I have observed and whether what I have visually seen complies with the design drawings. This would be based on my 20 years experience as a building contractor / my 20 years design experience and all that gets backed up with my PI cover.

 

Now say I find something that is not in compliance with the drawings? Will BC see this also, maybe, but at the end of the day you want a safe house.  I'll have a look at any non compliance and see if what you have done is still ok in my view.. say it is a structural thing. Now to get your completion certificate under the Scottish regs the BC officer may say.. hey you have deviated from the SER design certificate and it's now invalid. What I do is to work out if it still is ok, maybe do a drawing or two and some calcs, phone up the SER Engineer, have a chat and resolve any issues. The same rules apply if say you have deviated in term of DPC, weathering details and insulation details.. call this Architectural things.

 

Bob. There is a fee attached to this and I would be looking at what you signed up for and see if you can get your premium back and go with a different insurer.

 

For all on BH. As an SE I carry professional indemnity insurance. My insurer's look at my experience and competancy. The fine print says ok.. Gus we will insure you provided you don't take on designs that are outwith your competency or try and manipulate the terms and conditions of you insurance contract.. in other words.. don't be an idiot and expect us to pick up the tab. What they absolutely do is to insure me if I make a genuine mistake or get pelted by other folk that have made mistakes and try and pin the blame on me.. which is quite common in the construction industry.

 

@Amateur bob This could be a way of solving your problem at the extreme end, try and avoid by educating Protek.