Anyone know how much sway Parish Council has?

[nubbins]

.... on a planning application?

Trying to get permission on a new build 4 bed  in the garden of my current property and we have been through pre-application with the architect taking on board the pre-app planning officers comments and amending the plans accordingly but council were positive. The full application has had 1 objection from a neighbour regarding loss of light which the planning officer did not agree with as any side windows are non habitable rooms. The full app planning officer came back on Thursday asking for some slight amendments such as setting the property slightly back, slight change in cycle parking and bin storage, driveway with permeable surface but seemed quite positive.

Last night  I have seen on my planning application under "Response from Consultees" from the parish council recommending refusal "councillors considered the proposal does not appear well designed in relation to its surrounding, does not respond positively to the existing buildings, neighbouring properties or the local character of the area contrary to policy r23, for these reasons it was requested the application be refused"

It seems strange that parish councillors have said this when the district council have been happy all the way through, just wondered if anyone has had any experience of this?

 

Thanks in advance

Edited December 10, 2017 by nubbins
mistake

[Jeremy Harris]

Welcome.

 

Parish councils are a bit renowned for behaving like this, which is why it is always a VERY good idea to get in first and talk to as many Parish Councillors as possible before their planning meeting.  I also took the trouble to make sure my wife and I were at the Parish Council meeting where our application was being discussed and that had a massive impact; I believe it almost certainly turned the result around from a recommendation for refusal to the one we got, which was no objection.

 

The Parish Council response in itself isn't massively harmful, as long as it is not one of the Parishes that has been granted authority to produce it's own Neighbourhood Plan.  From the response you've copied from them it sounds as if there is not yet a Neighbourhood Plan for your parish, as if there as they would probably have cited it.

 

The real risk is that the Parish Council response could stir up more objections.  I've seen this, where objections have appeared as soon as the Parish Newsletter had come out, with the minutes of the meeting in.  If the number of objections exceeds a set figure (5 for our local authority) then that automatically triggers a change in the way the application is decided, in that it will be passed to the planning committee.  Sadly, planning committee members are not planners, just councillors, so the decision will often shift away from compliance with planning law and guidance and be influenced by personal views and politics.

 

Ideally you would have been best to try and get in first, before the Parish Council meeting, but you may still have time to go around and talk to all the immediate neighbours, face to face, explain who you are, why you want to build the house as planned and that you're not some shyster out to make a quick profit (that seems to be the thing that many suspect when they see a planning application !).  I think it can be harder for neighbours to object once they've met you face to face, and understand that you're just building a home.

[Ferdinand]

One thing you can do is to get an informed opinion quickly (you, architect, possibly Planning Officer) as to whether the objections are 'material planning considerations', then make a response as a comment on the Planning App, with legal / policy references from National Planning policy / local policy, Local Plan, evidence etc. ("This is b*ll*cks because it is in keeping with these 6 houses across the road and that amount of overlooking is to be expected in a village centre"  etc, phrased more neutrally.)

 

There is much to be said for going in and inspecting all the objections, and try and get the PO to be the one to show you file, and mention it all face to face.  You may need to frame your comments as innocent questions about the Council policies. You could also do that as a phone call.

 

Then you know it will all be considered in the Planning Officer's Report.

 

Who knows, you may find things the P/O has missed.

 

Ferdinand

Edited December 10, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Gone West]

1 hour ago, nubbins said:

 

It seems strange that parish councillors have said this when the district council have been happy all the way through, just wondered if anyone has had any experience of this?

That's unfortunate. We had just the opposite experience when we had support for our application from the Parish Council and nothing but negative responses from the Planning Officers. It didn't help us though as the District Council took no notice of the Parish Council. We went to the Planning Committee in the end to get it through.

[ToughButterCup]

2 hours ago, nubbins said:

.... on a planning application?

[...]

 

Close to none if - as is the case locally - the PC persist in submitting invalid objections. Like these

 

The Head of Planning has (reportedly) told our PC that their feedback will no longer be routinely considered

 

This is the most concise list of valid objections that I have found

2 hours ago, nubbins said:

[...]

"councillors considered the proposal does not appear well designed in relation to its surrounding, does not respond positively to the existing buildings, neighbouring properties or the local character of the area contrary to policy r23,

[...]

 

Exactly - to the word - that was said of ours. And the Planners rejected that 'consideration' (that's all it is) out of hand.

 

That said, there is no point in annoying the locals, but there is every good reason to stand your ground if the reasons given for objection are trivial, unevidenced or impressionistic. 

We were determined to build to a high standard in terms of current design trends - passive, to a degree, and use materials like wood rather than stone where possible. It takes a hundred years to 'turn a tree round' and a few million to make a stone.

 

Hold your ground and your nerve. Your case feels very similar indeed to ours.

Welcome by the way

Ian

 

[nubbins]

Thanks very much to all of you for coming back to me, I know with planning process there are no guarantees and to expect the unexpected but I was a little bit shocked when I saw that last night.

JS Luckily we only had one objection from the neighbour it affects most but we were up front with them (plus other neighbours) every step of the way, showed him the pre app and full  plans and kept him informed. Again I was a bit shocked when I saw his objection on the council website, especially as he has stated there has been previous planning on the site which has was rejected which I am pretty sure there has never been especially when the the previous owners were here 45 years and their pride and joy was the garden. Maybe I am being paranoid but it feels like he has contacted one of the parish councillors and kicked up a stink hence their overly negative comments.

 

Ferdinand, thanks I will delve into that tomorrow.

 

Peter, thanks! That is interesting!

 

Ian. thanks and again very interesting, I hope the DC do the same and reject the consideration. The fact they are asking for these slight amendments on Thursday gives me some hope I am trying to hold my nerve but it can be difficult.

 

I will keep you informed, thanks once again

 

Cheers

Carl

[Trw144]

@nubbins My parish council objected to mine and it made no difference - the planners were happy with it and that’s all that counts. As far as I can tell, if the planners support it and believe it follows their policy/criteria, then whether the locals like it or not does nt have any sway.

[ToughButterCup]

14 hours ago, nubbins said:

[...]

I am trying to hold my nerve but it can be difficult.

[...]

 

That is a core skill.

Holding your nerve, and developing more than normal levels of resilience.

Most self builders are expert, or near experts in their own field of work. And suddenly through our self build, we are exposed to systems and people who are  -nominally at least - far more expert than we are. And thats very jangling.

It leads to all sorts of difficult challenges - and since many of those hit you right in the bank balance, it what the experts call a 'high stakes' sector.

That's why we (BH) exist, and why you will find a highly committed audience here ready to listen to what you have to say. In my case on BH and its predecessor (2 or three years) I have already been given far more than I can ever give back (two posts saved me £17k, but I have saved much more than that overall).

In holding your nerve, you might like to think about creative and wholesome ways in which you can distract yourself from the almost perma-worry.

For me, I am learning (re-learning) how to fly drones and I use the BBC Radio iPlayer last thing at night to help me, through distraction, to switch off.

 

Keep us posted, and  or PM me if you need a private word. If I don't know, I'll know someone who does.

Ian

 

[Barney12]

I have some experience with two parish councils locally. What I can categorically say is that those parish councils have almost no influence on the planning process. The LA planning department consider/review the committee responses but that’s all. Unless the objection has grounds under planning policy for you area they will very likely disregard it. 

As as others have said tackle the objection head on.

[Jeremy Harris]

Parish Council objections do definitely count in the scoring mechanism for triggering an application to go before the planning committee, rather than be decided by the planning officer, using delegated authority.  Avoiding an application going to the planning committee is, at least around here, something very well worth investing in, as it's a political nightmare when compared to dealing with a planning officer.

 

Here, any more than 5 objections (and that includes the Parish Council) results in an application automatically going to the planning committee, so whilst it's true to say that Parish Council objections are often ignored in some respects, they can add to the total number of objections and trigger the situation where the decision is taken out of the hands of the planning officer. 

 

 

[jack]

22 hours ago, recoveringacademic said:

Exactly - to the word - that was said of ours. And the Planners rejected that 'consideration' (that's all it is) out of hand.

 

Ditto for us. The local parish input was the only negative feedback we had from anyone, and it wasn't even discussed by the planning officer in the approval.

 

The only thing they count for is the potential for bringing it into committee, as @JSHarris says. In our case, I can't imagine that the councillors involved would have done anything beyond submit the negative comment. Had there been 4 other objections, theirs would have tipped the balance, but that wasn't an issue for us.

[nubbins]

Thanks all again, you have been very helpful. We have had 2, 1 from the neighbour and the PC so hopefully not too bad and all objections were supposed to be in on the 5/12 although I did read somewhere that objections can still be taken after the supposed end date. Spoke to my architect this morning who in turn was speaking to the planning officer about the minor issues raised last week but his words echoed many of your comments regarding the PC and that was what the pre-app was for although nothing can be guaranteed at this stage.

Just thinking ahead and it is rejected would it be a case of taking it to appeal or is it best to withdraw the application and resubmit before it is rejected?

 

Thanks

[jack]

12 minutes ago, nubbins said:

... all objections were supposed to be in on the 5/12 although I did read somewhere that objections can still be taken after the supposed end date. 

 

Yes, they can be received right up until the decision, but since most people don't know that, it's most likely that there'll be no further objections.

[nubbins]

Sorry another question, on the council website the application has listed below, any idea what it means? Its been that status since I first posted, I forgot to ask as I was so wrapped up with the Parish council response. I think the status changed around the same time my architect got an email from the planner asking for the minor changes listed in my first post. Thanks

Application Status:	Recommendation Made

[Jeremy Harris]

It means that the planning case officer dealing with your application has made a recommendation for either approval or refusal and either passed it to his boss for sign off, or passed a report saying the same the planning committee.  As there is no indication at this stage as to which way things are going, have a look and see if you can see an "officers report".  If not, call them and ask if you can please see it.

[Ferdinand]

Phone the Officer up and ask him what he has recommended and why.

 

If he has recommended no, then it is a good opportunity to decide whether you need to Withdraw very pronto or plan to Appeal.

[nubbins]

There is no report attached to my application, in fact there is not a lot else been added apart from the neighbours and Parish objections, I thought there would be Highways etc. I'll get onto them Monday morning.

 

Thanks again

[Ferdinand]

8 hours ago, nubbins said:

There is no report attached to my application, in fact there is not a lot else been added apart from the neighbours and Parish objections, I thought there would be Highways etc. I'll get onto them Monday morning.

 

Thanks again

 

It may not have reached the website yet.

 

Ask them when it will be 'determined'. That is the point at which it cannot be undone.

 

Ferdinand

Edited December 17, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

Our Local Authority only update the planning website every Friday, so something can be submitted for the website on a Friday afternoon and not make it on to the website until the following Friday.  It's not at all uncommon for there to be a backlog of correspondence on planning waiting to be scanned and redacted before going on the website; I think one or two of the responses on ours took around three weeks to reach the website. 

 

You can ask to see the whole planning file at any time though, if you wish.  There will be stuff in the planning file that won't be on the website, too.

[Ferdinand]

Our LPA do not look at any comments until the comment date has expired, which seems a sensible husbanding of resources.

 

On a couple of Planning Apps they have been quite happy to maintain a conversation with me as applicant or objector throughout, and verbally to say what the outcome may be ... particularly if it saves them a longish phone call about minutiae .

 

F

[nubbins]

What a late Christmas present, came through today!!!!!.............

 

Wokingham Borough Council, in pursuance of its powers under the above Acts and Regulations, hereby Grants Permission for the above development to be carried out in accordance with the application and the accompanying plans submitted to the Council subject to compliance with the following conditions, the reasons for which are specified hereunder.

 

Many thanks for all your help and advice, I was a bundle of nerves when i hit this site but everyone of your replies really helped.

 

Thanks again, have a good new years eve and like the great Arnie, i'll be back...soom

[Jeremy Harris]

Great News!  Just at the right time of the year, too.

[curlewhouse]

I am now a Parish councillor! I can say in truth, it seems to vary with locality and time. Opinion from more experienced ones than I is that here we have very little sway and simply give an opinion which if not supported by other input is basically ignored. This could be because my own experience showed me that our National Park planning officers have a tremendous superiority complex and our authority sees itself as more "in charge" of the occupants of the park than "working with". So if we were to seriously object to something I cannot say how much notice would be taken, but then our Parish Council (my father was on it for about 30 years) has rarely if ever formally objected actually.  Interestingly, some years back a house was built with no planning permission whatsoever (!) and the Parish council raised this with the authority - nothing was done!   

Edited December 28, 2017 by curlewhouse

[Ferdinand]

1 hour ago, curlewhouse said:

I am now a Parish councillor! I can say in truth, it seems to vary with locality and time. Opinion from more experienced ones than I is that here we have very little sway and simply give an opinion which if not supported by other input is basically ignored. This could be because my own experience showed me that our National Park planning officers have a tremendous superiority complex and our authority sees itself as more "in charge" of the occupants of the park than "working with". So if we were to seriously object to something I cannot say how much notice would be taken, but then our Parish Council (my father was on it for about 30 years) has rarely if ever formally objected actually.  Interestingly, some years back a house was built with no planning permission whatsoever (!) and the Parish council raised this with the authority - nothing was done!   

 

The best thing you can probably contribute may be to get an understanding of what are relevant material Planning issues, and make sure everything else gets left out.

 

PCs seem to be magnificent tangentialists.

[curlewhouse]

Mind, doesn't the whole self build process make you realise how this country is choked by red tape? Some control is sensible, but the bureaucracy is way out of hand now.