Visibility splay

[flanagaj]

So the architects moved the proposed entrance of our house slightly westwards to that of the granted planning permission. 

 

 

As is clearly visible from the blue line, it cuts directly through the neighbours hedging and they won't agree to us removing said hedging to meet the condition that they have attached (see below).  What is strange, is that the granted planning application shows the visibility splay to be nowhere near as wide as what highways have mandated this time.

"Before the development is brought into use, the means of vehicular access to the site shall be constructed in accordance with the approved plan (Drg No.24-WLC-PA-10) and no structure, erection or planting exceeding 1.0m in height shall thereafter be placed within the visibility splays shown on the approved plans."

 

The existing entrance is shown below and Highways didn't mandate any conditions (they did so a site visit), and they haven't this time.   It's also a no through lane.



I obviously don't want to build a house that cannot be lived in because the condition cannot be satisfied.

[flanagaj]

Just to add.  This is what the architects have come back with.  One would think that before designing a house and submitting the application with visibility splays considered.  I feel that it's their screw up and they've seriously messed up.

"This could be an issue..

 

The previous permission did not have this 1.0m high clear sight line requirement, but then the access was not moved west.

 

To make the current scheme work we have to move the access west, which brings it nearer to next door, making the visibility splay to the west potentially harder to achieve. (that said the last consent also had a bin store blocking this view although I guess that may have been 1m high only.)

 

To be sure this isn't a potential problem we need to know some measurements as to the extent of next doors hedge and whether it obscures our 43m visibility splay as you look right - from 2m back from the highway edge - from the centre point of our proposed new access.

 

The photo below shows that there is some grass verge to help here, but we need to check whether this is sufficient to comply with the suggested condition.

 

If it's not, the choices are to do nothing, accept the consent and assume it'll never be checked or challenged, or to instruct a qualified highway engineer to make a case that the new access, and what can be seen to the right is adequate for this very lightly used single carriageway lane.

 

I can suggest a name in this connection if required.

 

It would be helpful as a start, if you could plot some dimensions when you next visit to ascertain if we do have an issue to address here.

 

Hope that makes sense."

[Big Jimbo]

is White lane a classified road ?

[Big Jimbo]

Do the council maintain the green verge ?

[Big Jimbo]

If you can answer No, to both of the above, you can tell them to F-off

[flanagaj]

17 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

is White lane a classified road ?

I am not sure if it is classified.  How can I tell?

It's a no through lane, that does have a council named sign at the entrance, so I assume it is.

[Big Jimbo]

12 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

I am not sure if it is classified.  How can I tell?

Try looking it up on the internet . I can't remember the site. Just type in is, blah, blah, and full postcode a classified road 

[kandgmitchell]

You want the highway terrier - this lists the classification of the roads maintained by Wiltshire County Council....

 

https://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/media/8218/adopted-roads-january-2022/pdf/adopted_roads_january_2022.pdf

[flanagaj]

So I have just manged to find out it's classification

[Mr Punter]

The original scheme retained the existing access.  The proposed scheme creates a new access and that has been assessed.  Quite why they want 45m visibility splays on a single track dead-end road is beyond me.  I would not just ignore it in case the neighbour tries to stitch you up.  The LA could then serve a breach of condition notice and all the associated mess.  At least you have the existing consent as a fallback.

[flanagaj]

4 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

The original scheme retained the existing access.  The proposed scheme creates a new access and that has been assessed.  Quite why they want 45m visibility splays on a single track dead-end road is beyond me.  I would not just ignore it in case the neighbour tries to stitch you up.  The LA could then serve a breach of condition notice and all the associated mess.  At least you have the existing consent as a fallback.

I have gone back to the architects and told them that it's their mess and they need to resolve it.  It is frustrating that they have imposed this when the current entrance does not meet said requirements either.

[Big Jimbo]

So the road is unclassified. Do the council maintain the Greenstrip next to the tarmac ?

If they don't maintain it, you can tell them to f-off

[Big Jimbo]

If the road is unclassified, and you either own the land up to the tarmac , or the council own the Green verge, but don't maintain it, you can put a crossover anywhere from your land to the road without permission.

[flanagaj]

2 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

So the road is unclassified. Do the council maintain the Greenstrip next to the tarmac ?

If they don't maintain it, you can tell them to f-off

No.  The residents cut the verges and the local farmer cuts the hedgerows

[Big Jimbo]

Just now, flanagaj said:

No.  The residents cut the verges and the local farmer cuts the hedgerows

Then ring the council and tell them to remove the stupid wording / condition .  Plenty of info out there about putting a crossover from your land to an unclassified road.

[Big Jimbo]

4 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

farmer cuts the hedgerows

He might do it on behalf of the council for a fee, rather than because he likes playing on the tractor. That might put a spanner in the works for you.

[flanagaj]

But a quick look on land registry suggests the boundary is not up to the road.  Where as on the south side the farmer seems to own half of the road as well.  This could be a land registry display issue.

[Big Jimbo]

If you and your neighbours left the grass to grow, he might be being paid to cut that at the same time as the hedge? Where I am the council maintains nothing.So I was able to tell them to F-off.

Worth your while finding out

[Big Jimbo]

I told the council to demonstrate that they owned, and maintained the grass verge. They could do neither. I then pointed out that regardless of ownership, the residents would ,by adverse rights, having maintained the land forever, now have a right to claim it as there own, if they so chose to.

Find out, who, if anybody, pays the tractor man.

[ProDave]

Lots of issues here.

 

Does the plot yet have PP?  even if it is not what you actually want, there is talk of a different entrance without the visibility requirement.  Does that access actually exist physically?

 

Has the revised plan with the relocated access been submitted?  Has it been refused?

 

We had a similar issue that planning tried to impose a 90 metre visibility splay and require us to demonstrate control over that.  This if course would be impossible as much of it was over neighbours land.  The issue was solved when I found a nearby recent application on the same road that was passed with only a 60 metre visibility requirement, and no requirement to demonstrate control over it.  I asked the planners to justify why our plot required different visibility requirements.  They could not. So ours got passed with the same requirements as the other nearby permission.  And here is the thing, NOBODY has ever checked it.  So search other passed applications nearby and find one with less visibility requirement.

 

The issue of the boundary not matching the edge of the road.  Out solicitor brought this up when we bought our plot.  In our case when the land last change ownership it was accessed by a private road with the boundary of the plot being the edge of the private road.  The road had since been adopted.  Our solicitor was meticulous to verify the public road now adopted is indeed in the same place as the previous private road, otherwise a ransom strip situation might have applied.

[flanagaj]

46 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Lots of issues here.

 

Does the plot yet have PP?  even if it is not what you actually want, there is talk of a different entrance without the visibility requirement.  Does that access actually exist physically?

 

Has the revised plan with the relocated access been submitted?  Has it been refused?

 

We had a similar issue that planning tried to impose a 90 metre visibility splay and require us to demonstrate control over that.  This if course would be impossible as much of it was over neighbours land.  The issue was solved when I found a nearby recent application on the same road that was passed with only a 60 metre visibility requirement, and no requirement to demonstrate control over it.  I asked the planners to justify why our plot required different visibility requirements.  They could not. So ours got passed with the same requirements as the other nearby permission.  And here is the thing, NOBODY has ever checked it.  So search other passed applications nearby and find one with less visibility requirement.

 

The issue of the boundary not matching the edge of the road.  Out solicitor brought this up when we bought our plot.  In our case when the land last change ownership it was accessed by a private road with the boundary of the plot being the edge of the private road.  The road had since been adopted.  Our solicitor was meticulous to verify the public road now adopted is indeed in the same place as the previous private road, otherwise a ransom strip situation might have applied.

The plot already has granted PP and the access for that application is shown on the second image.   The access already exists and was the entrance to the old cattery business.   

As to the boundary not going to the road edge.  Our solicitor never flagged that.  I just checked on Land Registry and it appears to not be owned by anybody and I think it must be owned by the council.  This would have come up in searches if there had been an issue with access and ransom strips.

As no development has happened on the lane in 40 years or more, there won't be any chance of finding anything which might help the case.   Worst case scenario, we will have to leave the access where it is.

[Blooda]

You need to consult the Highways Definitive Map.  

They will send you a map with Highways [inc verges] highlighting what they are responsible maintaining for [not own, as you may own the road up to the centre... but that is whole different situation].

 

Highway records - Wiltshire Council

 

£37.10  for a check. 

 

We had a similar situation, we purchased our land with outline planning permission [access only].  And the first thing our architect did was check that the visibility splays as defined in the planning permission, were only above Highways Maintained Land.  The highways are defining the splay, therefore if the obstruction is on their maintained land, you are ok.  They will of course say they are not responsible for cutting the hedge [££] but would have no objections.   

[ProDave]

9 hours ago, flanagaj said:

The plot already has granted PP and the access for that application is shown on the second image.   The access already exists and was the entrance to the old cattery business.   

Then I would tell your architect that any revised plans MUST uses that long established access, and his job is to make a layout work using that access before you go to planning again.

[flanagaj]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

Then I would tell your architect that any revised plans MUST uses that long established access, and his job is to make a layout work using that access before you go to planning again.

Bit late now.  We've spent 5k with them and the planning officer is about to complete the application.  

[flanagaj]

2 hours ago, Blooda said:

You need to consult the Highways Definitive Map.  

They will send you a map with Highways [inc verges] highlighting what they are responsible maintaining for [not own, as you may own the road up to the centre... but that is whole different situation].

 

Highway records - Wiltshire Council

 

£37.10  for a check. 

 

We had a similar situation, we purchased our land with outline planning permission [access only].  And the first thing our architect did was check that the visibility splays as defined in the planning permission, were only above Highways Maintained Land.  The highways are defining the splay, therefore if the obstruction is on their maintained land, you are ok.  They will of course say they are not responsible for cutting the hedge [££] but would have no objections.   

Ok, thanks.  I need to find the corresponding link for Hampshire Council.