Between a Roof and a hard place....

[Mulberry View]

We're in a bit of a pickle and really hoping for a bit of moral support/guidance from anyone that has any positivity to add.

 

We are now fully into a legal dispute with our Zinc roofing contractor, I mentioned it here, for those that didn't catch my previous post. Sadly there is really no avoiding this, the roof has numerous potential defects, some more serious than others and the eventual result could mean the whole thing has to come off.

 

With the help of a good solicitor, we have put together a fairly compelling case but have to allow it to run its course now.

 

The roof is mostly watertight, although it has 3 large rooflight openings that do not have their windows in them. I have sheeted these up with fairly substantial timber frames covered with thick UV-treated Poly-tunnel plastic. These have so far withstood the last 3 bouts of 50+mph gusts, so seem to be pretty good. This photo was in the Autumn, the rooflight covers are better than you see in this pic by the way!

 

 

We really need to get on and cannot afford for the project to sit still whilst the legal work takes place. However, we cannot ignore the fact that some amount of roof repair is going to have to take place at some point and maybe even total replacement. We gave the Zinc company full notice that we planned to remove the scaffolding that had been put up for their work and that progress would need to continue, the scaffolding came down just after Christmas. Part of our legal claim will be for the costs to re-erect the scaffolding to complete the remedial works, but if we progress any further, the scaffolding will of course have to be a 'top hat' covered style to prevent the inside getting wet.

 

Our project is already quite a long way behind. We had hoped to get a window order finalised around the middle of last year, it was supposed to be my focus when the Zinc team arrived, but sadly I had to be so hands on, both during and since this work that we still have not pulled the trigger. We really cannot wait much longer and the next steps are to fit the floor insulation, UFH and screed.

 

Do you think we're doing the right thing here? I know it would, in many ways, be better to wait until the roof is sorted, but that could be months and SWMBO has very clearly told me that she cannot do another Winter in this caravan (it'll be our fourth!), so the pressure is on.

[Alan Ambrose]

Have you had a couple of other contractors / SEs look at it (and write up a detailed & official looking review doc and cost/method to fix)? One option is to fix up at your expense, even down to renewing the entire roof, then claim after. If it definitely has to come off, you might well start sooner rather than later. Do a companies house review to check how big / established the company is. See my post on this subject (below). You don't want them vanishing before you're done. Have you sent your letter before action etc? - the starting gun isn't really fired until you have filed your claim so get letter before action and claim filed asap. County Court is a about 9 months I think but their may be some local stats or you could ask your local court unofficially. Note that you will generally only get back 60% of your legal costs if you win - also check the county court site on costs recovery vs. size of claims. Contact any industry body they're a member of too.

 

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

Isn’t this on the architect, as the paid principal designer?

 

This should have been flagged and drawings presented for construction, with this issue preempted way before the roof was even on.

 

Im not sure how to add positivity here, and I am trying, but this sounds like you’ve been left to fend for yourself while paying someone who was tasked with organising all this, who seems to have not done so.

 

If the metal roof can be cut and welded, as we see in the pics of the finished (warrantied) job, then I see zero reason why the roof manufacturer cannot provide a detail for rectifying this without the need to remove the entire roof. Then you choose a different trade from their approved installer list to come out and to a method statement and estimate for the works. Use that as a too, to open discussion with the original chap and see how they respond.

 

You need to get into gear with this obvs, so get on the phone to the architect first and start there. That is the person who should be guiding you!

[Mulberry View]

10 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Have you had a couple of other contractors / SEs look at it (and write up a detailed & official looking review doc and cost/method to fix)? One option is to fix up at your expense, even down to renewing the entire roof, then claim after. If it definitely has to come off, you might well start sooner rather than later. Do a companies house review to check how big / established the company is. See my post on this subject (below). You don't want them vanishing before you're done. Have you sent your letter before action etc? - the starting gun isn't really fired until you have filed your claim so get letter before action and claim filed asap. County Court is a about 9 months I think but their may be some local stats or you could ask your local court unofficially. Note that you will generally only get back 60% of your legal costs if you win - also check the county court site on costs recovery vs. size of claims. Contact any industry body they're a member of too.

 

 

 

 

Thanks @Alan Ambrose. Our initial legal letter stating our position has been sent. I have had a couple of other Zinc specialists have an overall look at it for the rooflight detailing issue and it was them who raised many of the other defects. Part of the process will be to get an Expert Witness to do a full report on it, but I think we're going to wait for the other sides response to our first letter. I think we'll know more about how they view it, but they have confirmed that they are insured, so I hope that is positive. Obviously I can't go into too much detail on the case here, but I do hope that if the roof is to come off, we can tackle that during the Spring/Summer, after the April showery period is over.

 

Industry bodies in Zinc roofing seems to be scarce.

[Mulberry View]

3 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Isn’t this on the architect, as the paid principal designer?

 

This should have been flagged and drawings presented for construction, with this issue preempted way before the roof was even on.

 

Im not sure how to add positivity here, and I am trying, but this sounds like you’ve been left to fend for yourself while paying someone who was tasked with organising all this, who seems to have not done so.

 

If the metal roof can be cut and welded, as we see in the pics of the finished (warrantied) job, then I see zero reason why the roof manufacturer cannot provide a detail for rectifying this without the need to remove the entire roof. Then you choose a different trade from their approved installer list to come out and to a method statement and estimate for the works. Use that as a too, to open discussion with the original chap and see how they respond.

 

You need to get into gear with this obvs, so get on the phone to the architect first and start there. That is the person who should be guiding you!

 

Thanks @Nickfromwales. You may or may not know that we are estranged rom our original Architect and is probably contributory towards how we've ended up here. However, the Zinc roofer appears to have accepted design responsibility in proceeding to implement their own design to many of the details. I have another Architect on board now, we are trying to fill in the detailing blanks now, but this was not fully known when the roof was instructed. The Zinc installer was very bold in assuring us that they are very qualified to detail our roof, they had plenty to say about how poor Architects details are, but that we should trust them as an accredited installer.

 

We have been trying since September to come up with alternative details to fix the main issue and one has not been presented that meets our needs and satisfies the warranties offered by the roof system and the rooflight manufacturer. I would prefer to reach an agreement with the original installer, but that ship has well-and-truly sailed.

 

It's an ugly mess, but there does appear to be legal hope for us, we just don't know how long and at what cost just yet.

[Mr Punter]

From what you have posted the issue is just down to the hinges on 2 or 3 rooflights on a flat roof.  Why do you think the roof may have to come off?  You probably don't need scaffolding.

 

In my experience, the Velux flat roof windows do not offer much ventilation when open so you could consider ditching the opening function if push comes to shove.

 

With the fixing the brackets through several layers of zinc, could you offset the hinges to overcome this?

 

The legal route can be very long and costly and it sounds like it will be difficult to achieve a complete victory, while you risk considerable expense.

 

You would need to expand on the "numerous potential defects".  You would need actual defects to convince the court, even if they have not resulted in e.g. water ingress.

[Nickfromwales]

7 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

In my experience, the Velux flat roof windows do not offer much ventilation when open so you could consider ditching the opening function if push comes to shove.

 

With the fixing the brackets through several layers of zinc, could you offset the hinges to overcome this?

In a well insulated and airtight house, I’d defo want the roof lights to open to help purge excess stagnant heat out. The chain gear opens them quite far, and the rain sensors shut them when the great British weather reverts back to normal.

 

Between the roof manufacturer and Velux, this is a shower of shit tbh, they’re not being very helpful?

 

I would have thought if you could pack the hinges which are sat on single ply roofing to bring them out to the same plain as the ones on multiples of sheeting then Velux should be happy! That’s just nonsense from them afaic. 
 

If the roof can be cut around the Velux window openings etc the there’s no reason why they shouldn’t allow you to cut / weld / dress around the hinges, but I would defo use testimony from the other installers (if they’ll put pen to paper) and see if there can be a resolve that leaves the rest of the roof on. Run this by your replacement architect maybe and format a multi-pronged attack.

[Mulberry View]

28 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

From what you have posted the issue is just down to the hinges on 2 or 3 rooflights on a flat roof.  Why do you think the roof may have to come off?  You probably don't need scaffolding.

 

In my experience, the Velux flat roof windows do not offer much ventilation when open so you could consider ditching the opening function if push comes to shove.

 

With the fixing the brackets through several layers of zinc, could you offset the hinges to overcome this?

 

The legal route can be very long and costly and it sounds like it will be difficult to achieve a complete victory, while you risk considerable expense.

 

You would need to expand on the "numerous potential defects".  You would need actual defects to convince the court, even if they have not resulted in e.g. water ingress.

 

The issue began as being about the hinges, but more defects have been discovered in the time since. I think the installer has circumvented the compliancy process by not compounding out-of-scope elements. The Zinc manufacturer doesn't care because they only warrant the material, probably not worth anything in the grand scheme.

For example, the longer of the 2 roofs is just a smidge under 14 metres. This significantly exceeds VM Zincs maximum tray length. It turns out that they gave special approval for it, but it doesn't look like the installer highlighted to them that, along with the long trays, there are also soldered seams behind the rooflights, which essentially lock the trays together. There is also no expansion tolerance behind the rooflight upstands, so these 3 points combined make for a risky roof.

 

Lots of concern has been shown about the amount of soldering too, which is a big reliability issue. The need for soldering was not presented in advance and, apparently will require frequent inspections. The joined trays make this issue many times worse. How can we effectively monitor soldered joints on a roof that is 7 metres up? There's no way we'd have agreed to this if we had known.

 

There are also possible signs of leakage which need to be investigated. I am tracking at least 2 wet patches which I have evidence of going through a wet/dry/wet/dry cycle.

[Mulberry View]

21 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

In a well insulated and airtight house, I’d defo want the roof lights to open to help purge excess stagnant heat out. The chain gear opens them quite far, and the rain sensors shut them when the great British weather reverts back to normal.

 

Between the roof manufacturer and Velux, this is a shower of shit tbh, they’re not being very helpful?

 

I would have thought if you could pack the hinges which are sat on single ply roofing to bring them out to the same plain as the ones on multiples of sheeting then Velux should be happy! That’s just nonsense from them afaic. 
 

If the roof can be cut around the Velux window openings etc the there’s no reason why they shouldn’t allow you to cut / weld / dress around the hinges, but I would defo use testimony from the other installers (if they’ll put pen to paper) and see if there can be a resolve that leaves the rest of the roof on. Run this by your replacement architect maybe and format a multi-pronged attack.

 

You're exactly right, it's a shower of shit. I know that we should have had Architectural support, but the installer absolutely should have kicked the problems back to me when they were realised. Instead they 'winged it'. Velux have offered some help, but they do not take responsibility. The hinges, if you ask me, are skimpy anyway (and with 3no M5 fixings each) and with windows that weigh 275kg each, they must have a good fixing. Especially because the window has to be pivoted up to vertical in order to fix the final bolt in each hinge, so there'll be 275kg bearing down vertically at that point.

 

It turns out that the Vario by Velux windows run close to the upstands and moving the hinge at all from it's designed position could cause the inner edge of the window to foul the upstand as it opens.

 

Both of the onward installers that viewed the roof say that it's not a straight-forward issue, but both have tabled something that might be able to be developed, well for the rooflight issue at least. But both of course state that I'll screw any warranty I might have on the roof as soon as they start to mess with it.

[Tetrarch]

Just an personal observation.

 

Opening veluxes to allow accumulated heat to dissipate seems to be an expensive and inefficient method (though aestetically I love the idea!). Have you considered some kind of mechanical ventilation as an alternative? You don't need MVHR as your use-case seems to be a solution to insolation so a simple extractor fan set at the highest ceiling point would achieve the same result - and a lot more quickly

 

Regards

 

Tet

[Mulberry View]

11 minutes ago, Tetrarch said:

Just an personal observation.

 

Opening veluxes to allow accumulated heat to dissipate seems to be an expensive and inefficient method (though aestetically I love the idea!). Have you considered some kind of mechanical ventilation as an alternative? You don't need MVHR as your use-case seems to be a solution to insolation so a simple extractor fan set at the highest ceiling point would achieve the same result - and a lot more quickly

 

Regards

 

Tet

 

Ironically, we are to have MVHR. The opening windows were because we loved large opening rooflights in our last place, they seemed to let a lot of heat escape in the summer. HIndsight is a wonderful thing and if we'd known how much agro they would cause, of course we'd have done without them.

[Tetrarch]

25 minutes ago, Mulberry View said:

 

Ironically, we are to have MVHR. The opening windows were because we loved large opening rooflights in our last place, they seemed to let a lot of heat escape in the summer. HIndsight is a wonderful thing and if we'd known how much agro they would cause, of course we'd have done without them.

 

I've got 6 sq m of rooflights and MVHR. I haven't yet gone through a summer, so time will tell, but I've noticed that the MVHR is very good about maintaining fresh air throughout the whole house. 

 

We went for (quite expensive) sealed unit rooflights that "drop over" our timber upstands. They make a great seal and then the only join that matters is where the upstands poke through the roof material. In our case it's a rubber roof so I was massively obsessed with the way that these were constructed. I'll open our patio doors if things get too hot!

 

Regards

 

Tet 

[JohnMo]

2 hours ago, Mulberry View said:

We really cannot wait much longer and the next steps are to fit the floor insulation, UFH and screed.

 

Do you think we're doing the right thing here?

We actually did ours before walls or roof. So you are in a better starting point and way less likely to get wet, even with your current issues. Just do a cement based screed that is tolerant of being wet.

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Mulberry View said:

 

You're exactly right, it's a shower of shit. I know that we should have had Architectural support, but the installer absolutely should have kicked the problems back to me when they were realised. Instead they 'winged it'. Velux have offered some help, but they do not take responsibility. The hinges, if you ask me, are skimpy anyway (and with 3no M5 fixings each) and with windows that weigh 275kg each, they must have a good fixing. Especially because the window has to be pivoted up to vertical in order to fix the final bolt in each hinge, so there'll be 275kg bearing down vertically at that point.

 

It turns out that the Vario by Velux windows run close to the upstands and moving the hinge at all from it's designed position could cause the inner edge of the window to foul the upstand as it opens.

 

Both of the onward installers that viewed the roof say that it's not a straight-forward issue, but both have tabled something that might be able to be developed, well for the rooflight issue at least. But both of course state that I'll screw any warranty I might have on the roof as soon as they start to mess with it.

Ask them to produce method statements and then approach the roof company to open a dialogue of how to fix and keep your cover. Offer to pay the new trades for their time, plz, as it will mean they spend proper time on it. 

[JohnMo]

2 minutes ago, Tetrarch said:

We went for (quite expensive) sealed unit rooflights that "drop over" our timber upstands. They make a great seal and then the only join that matters is where the upstands poke through the roof material

We did similar, although on compacfoam upstairs. We did an EPDM standing seam, the upstand is completely covered and seal welded. Again we open doors and windows, but also run UFH in cool mode.

[G and J]

47 minutes ago, Tetrarch said:

We went for (quite expensive) sealed unit rooflights that "drop over" our timber upstands. They make a great seal and then the only join that matters is where the upstands poke through the roof material

 

Not wanting to divert this thread, and truly sorry for your troubles @Mulberry View...my only bit of positivity...you've made it this far,  you'll get there.

 

At some point @Tetrarch could you post which roof lights you went with (sorry couldn't work out how to quote into a new post🤔)

[jack]

8 minutes ago, G and J said:

(sorry couldn't work out how to quote into a new post🤔)

 

If I understand what you're trying to do: in the new post, place the cursor where you want to add a quote, then go to the post of interest and click the "Quote" button.

 

If you have to go to a different page in the thread to find the post you want to quote, it might place the quote at the end of your current post, but you can just drag and drop it - see the top left corner of the quoted block while hovering over it - to where you want it in the new post (unless you're on a mobile, in which I case I can't help you because I've never managed to this working on my phone!)

[Mulberry View]

1 hour ago, Tetrarch said:

 

I've got 6 sq m of rooflights and MVHR. I haven't yet gone through a summer, so time will tell, but I've noticed that the MVHR is very good about maintaining fresh air throughout the whole house. 

 

We went for (quite expensive) sealed unit rooflights that "drop over" our timber upstands. They make a great seal and then the only join that matters is where the upstands poke through the roof material. In our case it's a rubber roof so I was massively obsessed with the way that these were constructed. I'll open our patio doors if things get too hot!

 

Regards

 

Tet 

 

I do honestly think we'd reconsider the rooflights, but obviously the water is under the bridge. Ours are the sort that drop over the timber upstands too. I meticulously constructed the roof and installed the upstands to the absolute letter of their guidelines and well within the tolerances. It's a shame that all turned to you-know-what when the Zinc roofer arrived.

 

We liked the idea of some sort of stack ventilation, we have an openable rooflight at the high end of the living room and in the double height entrance hall.

[Mulberry View]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

Ask them to produce method statements and then approach the roof company to open a dialogue of how to fix and keep your cover. Offer to pay the new trades for their time, plz, as it will mean they spend proper time on it. 

 

I have had what appear to be 2 decent Zinc installers here. I've learned, however, that they all hate each other and willing throw each other under the bus. Both of these installers claim to be working often on jobs that our installer has either left or c'ocked up.

 

There is a terminal potential issue with the upstand height in our box gutter and, as that was the lowest part of the roof, if it is proven to be defective, the whole of that section of roof (half of the total area) will have to come off.

[saveasteading]

4 hours ago, Mulberry View said:

Part of the process will be to get an Expert Witness 

I agree you delay this. They are expensive but essential if it goes to adjudication of court. At this stage you are getting together the essential information.

I recall sitting with an expert witness who was effectively interviewing me to support our own case. 

It was worthwhile in itself, in getting our case tested. After 2 hours or so he said that I knew much more about it than him and that he would now write his report. A few pages cost several  hundred £.

 

2. Get a move on. The other party might be rearranging their business and then disappear this one.

[Mr Punter]

7 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

The chain gear opens them quite far

 190mm on one side only, so not exactly purge ventilation and not as much as a centre pivot on a slight pitch.

[Tetrarch]

5 hours ago, G and J said:

 

Not wanting to divert this thread, and truly sorry for your troubles @Mulberry View...my only bit of positivity...you've made it this far,  you'll get there.

 

At some point @Tetrarch could you post which roof lights you went with (sorry couldn't work out how to quote into a new post🤔)

 

 

https://idsystems.co.uk/roofs/rooflights/

 

I was really impressed with ID Systems. We visited the factory twice and bought their beautiful Vistaline tilt-and-slide doors as well https://idsystems.co.uk/slide-and-turn-doors/

 

The Vistaline doors were actually the first purchase, we added three rooflights and two static windows to ensure that fit-and-finish was the same. Apologies I thought I had taken some better pictures, but all the ground floor windows are ID

 

 

Regards

 

Tet

[G and J]

Thank you....will have a good look

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> 2. Get a move on. The other party might be rearranging their business and then disappear this one.

 

I already made this point but +10 from here. Your solicitor should be on top of this. A rookies mistake to sue successfully and not be able to collect because the company has gone bust.

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Alan Ambrose said:

A rookies mistake to sue successfully and not be able to collect because the company has gone bust.

If they go bust, can the insurance company in place at the time still be held accountable? Is there any recourse against a company gone bust in these circumstances?