Mr Punter Posted February 12 Posted February 12 Just to add I have no legal training or background but I have had experience of not serving a Pay Less Notice under an NEC3 contract which made our position very weak.
saveasteading Posted February 12 Posted February 12 Don't get hung up on the formality. You are not expected to know these formalities of the industry. You simply have to state your reasons and make a "reasonable" payment. But the formal notice might shake your builder. BTW I don't feel that he will ever be back, and a formal pay less notice will increase that likelihood. So you will need a new plumber who might be nervous or opportunist: either of these will add to the cost. And you won't get a discount for the kitchen door. My main concern is that the door is a different shade, as it will be a different batch. Do not hold back too little but be fair at the same time. If you want to draft it here for comment please do. Or send it privately if you don't want it in the public domain. No names or locations for us of course. 1
saveasteading Posted February 12 Posted February 12 4 minutes ago, Mr Punter said: Just to add I have no legal training or background I'm not a legal either. But I've done courses and sadly been through adjudications etc claiming or resisting payment.. Never got to court but once was settled literally on the courthouse steps. The big contractor pushed their trumpian non-payment that far.
Tom Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 Thanks again both. I went back to the contractor yesterday with the points on the invoice that I'm contesting, sent them the Pay Less Notice and paid them by bank transfer for the balance. They have, not suprisingly, pushed back and are now saying the invoice is accruing interest at something like BoE base rate + 8% a day! My question is, do they actually have the right to impose this "late payment" charge on an invoice that I am contesting? I have never signed a contract with them.
Pocster Posted February 13 Posted February 13 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Tom said: BoE base rate + 8% a day! My question is, do they actually have the right to impose this "late payment" charge on an invoice that I am contesting? I have never signed a contract with them. Unless that’s in writing as a condition of your contract then no . I’ve been to court a good few times - I think a judge would have a problem with base + 8% per day !!!!! That equates to boe+2920% annually 🙄 Edited February 13 by Pocster
Tom Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 2 minutes ago, Pocster said: Unless that’s in writing as a condition of your contract then no I've never signed a contract, or even been shown their terms. But I guess after working with them for a year+ then you are deemed to be working under their contractual terms by default?
Big Jimbo Posted February 13 Posted February 13 @Pocster Whata doo ya mean laddie. Prob less than a pay day loan interest rate. do I need to send the boys round. They can't check your solweld joints while there. 1
Pocster Posted February 13 Posted February 13 16 minutes ago, Tom said: I've never signed a contract, or even been shown their terms. But I guess after working with them for a year+ then you are deemed to be working under their contractual terms by default? Get them to send whatever contract they think they have . If you’ve signed nothing and never been sent anything until now - then there is no contract . Ultimately if you’ve signed nothing but have proof of damage they’ve done then the ball is in their court to do something . My assumption is that I ALWAYS will end up in small claims court . 9 out of 10 times it doesn’t . But it’s best to hope for the best and plan for the worse . 1
Pocster Posted February 13 Posted February 13 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said: @Pocster Whata doo ya mean laddie. Prob less than a pay day loan interest rate. do I need to send the boys round. They can't check your solweld joints while there. IMHO a judge won’t stand that some bs made up extreme interest rate with zero written contract stipulating that . Burden would be on the claimant to justify the rate . 3000% is rather hard to justify - sounds like profiteering… Edited February 13 by Pocster 2
saveasteading Posted February 13 Posted February 13 5 minutes ago, Tom said: deemed to be working under their contractual terms by default No. Not so. Even if there was some implication, no contract has a space to write in the interest per day. 8% per annum maybe. They are playing at being lawyers, thinking this will intimidate you. It is bullying. Again. It looks as if they are used to behaving like this. Clearly the last thing they want to do is return to complete the work. Prepare your mindset for the next stage. They may well now write you a letter by a solicitor, because they generally do the first letter cheap or even free. When you read it, you will see that it is rather generic, because it is simply writing what they are told to write. You just write back, stating what you have said on here already. And that on reflection you paid too much and will seek for redress if this proceeds, plus costs. 2
Pocster Posted February 13 Posted February 13 3 minutes ago, saveasteading said: No. Not so. Even if there was some implication, no contract has a space to write in the interest per day. 8% per annum maybe. They are playing at being lawyers, thinking this will intimidate you. It is bullying. Again. It looks as if they are used to behaving like this. Clearly the last thing they want to do is return to complete the work. Prepare your mindset for the next stage. They may well now write you a letter by a solicitor, because they generally do the first letter cheap or even free. When you read it, you will see that it is rather generic, because it is simply writing what they are told to write. You just write back, stating what you have said on here already. And that on reflection you paid too much and will seek for redress if this proceeds, plus costs. Agree with this . Respond in writing nicely ( again ; assume a judge will read this ) . Stipulate your points clearly , why you are with holding and proof / issue you have . Assuming they respond to that ; presumably disagreeing . You then respond once more imho and tell them to pursue you legally . Most likely they’ll either drop the issue ( how much are we talking withheld ? ) , send more ‘got off the internet ‘ legal letters or actually start small claims proceedings . Bullying is the tactic here via them . I’ve got a few companies who write too me every few months or even years with “ if I don’t pay we will take legal action “ - I respond with (expletive deleted)ing do it . 1
saveasteading Posted February 13 Posted February 13 9 minutes ago, Pocster said: or actually start small claims proceedings That would be refused by small claims, as it is too technical, but they might try. @Tom what are they actually arguing? Not that some work is unfinished but that your pay less is too much? How much? Give them difficult work to do, and ask them what sum they are claiming and the justification. From this stage I nearly always start to notice things that aren't right with the job, and add them to the claim. I'd get a friend to witness the current condition in case they argue that you have caused damage in use. They might now offer some compromise. You say no, as you have already tried to find a solution and they refuse. And @Tom well done so far. 1
Mr Punter Posted February 13 Posted February 13 1 hour ago, Tom said: accruing interest at something like BoE base rate + 8% a day! They may just mean 8% annual interest accruing daily. Otherwise they are idiots. 2
Pocster Posted February 13 Posted February 13 17 minutes ago, saveasteading said: That would be refused by small claims, as it is too technical, but they might try. Depends . After all it is “ simply “ we weren’t paid , here’s why not type affair . Small claims court is less initial costs than a solicitor ( companies rarely do that in small cases ) . But indeed ; it’s upto them to make the move - whatever that maybe .
Tony L Posted February 13 Posted February 13 2 hours ago, Mr Punter said: They may just mean 8% annual interest accruing daily. Otherwise they are idiots. That's right. They wouldn't be allowed to charge 8% a day, even if their T&Cs tell you that's what they will do. I received a letter from my builder's solicitor within the past couple of days that says, "This may include interest at 8% per annum above the base rate, a fixed sum for compensation for late payment and the costs of recovery.", so I'm guessing 8%pa above base is the max. they're allowed to charge.
SteamyTea Posted February 13 Posted February 13 Been a while since I have looked at contract law. But this may help. A4ID-english-contract-law-at-a-glance.pdf 2
sb1202 Posted February 13 Posted February 13 4 hours ago, Tom said: and are now saying the invoice is accruing interest at something like BoE base rate + 8% a day! It should be 8% annual interest accrued daily. It's a statutory interest charge - see here - https://www.gov.uk/late-commercial-payments-interest-debt-recovery/charging-interest-commercial-debt 4 hours ago, Tom said: do they actually have the right to impose this "late payment" charge on an invoice that I am contesting? Yes. If they're talking about adding interest and refusing to back down, I'd take this as a signal that they are considering debt recovery/collector. 4 hours ago, Tom said: I have never signed a contract with them You entered a contract with them when you instructed them to start work on your project. If you part or pay any invoices, that cements the fact you entered the contract. I've been through all this a few weeks ago, but I was the pursuer. If a debt collector does get involved and starts contacting you, you can be assured that they will have done the legal due diligence to ensure they get their money.
Tony L Posted February 13 Posted February 13 1 hour ago, sb1202 said: If a debt collector does get involved and starts contacting you, you can be assured that they will have done the legal due diligence to ensure they get their money. I disagree. 1
saveasteading Posted February 13 Posted February 13 2 hours ago, Tony L said: you can be assured that they will have done the legal due diligence to ensure they get their money. disagree. They are professional bullies and don't have time* for due diligence. * being a bit polite here. If they understood contract law then they'd be lawyers or consultants. 1
Pocster Posted February 14 Posted February 14 (edited) I have been a debt collector ( only for a few weeks ) trust me you have minimal info . Basically you just knock and ask for payment- that’s it . I wasn’t a bully btw! Thats why claims court and high court enforcement are much better . Edited February 14 by Pocster
Tom Posted February 14 Author Posted February 14 Thanks for all the input everyone. I think it must be BoE +8% annually! Anyway, other than the previously agreed retention, there are two points on the invoice that I am contesting, and that I have withheld payment of: - replacement of tiles broken by the tiler when they were installed, totalling £1,200 - extra hire of tower scaffold for £1,900 (!) The tower scaffold was for the use of the contractor and his sub-contractors, it was left on site for months and months unused and was eventually taken away. Basically, the contractor forgot it was still on hire. Apparently this is my fault and I have been charged. I absolutely do not feel I should be liable for the above, and I'm sticking my heels in!
Big Jimbo Posted February 14 Posted February 14 4 minutes ago, Tom said: absolutely do not feel I should be liable for the above, and I'm sticking my heels in! Totally agree with you Tom. Write to them and point that out, and tell them to take you to court. 1
Canski Posted February 14 Posted February 14 11 minutes ago, Tom said: extra hire of tower scaffold for £1,900 (!) The tower scaffold was for the use of the contractor and his sub-contractors, it was left on site for months and months unused and was eventually taken away. Basically, the contractor forgot it was still on hire. Apparently this is my fault and I have been charged. Who hired it in ? You or the contractor ? I see unused hired in plant on site all the time. Such a waste.
Tom Posted February 14 Author Posted February 14 42 minutes ago, Canski said: Who hired it in ? You or the contractor ? I see unused hired in plant on site all the time. Such a waste. They hired it in. The whole thing turned in to a mess with their sub-contractors being slow/not showing up, then they fired their own project manager - so essentially the whole project was without any oversight. The tower was obviously just forgotten about, left in a corner and just gathered dust. Now they are trying to get me to pay for their mistake.
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