Control4

[Bramco]

1 hour ago, G and J said:

and in addition turn that light on and off using hone assistant?

Or the Shelly or Sonoff app, or Google Home or Alexa if you have integrated them into those environments.  There are many ways to do this.

But it is great that you can simply drop these into the light switch back box, connect up and then either use the switch, or have a command or automation turn them on and off. Don't think they'll fit in the really shallow back boxes though.  But with them, if you can extract the back box, the wiring can be passed through one of the holes in the back box, so that the wifi switch sits outside the back box in the cavity.  Probably not allowed in the regs mind you but it works.  We have a couple in our garage on a double switch, I've added another back box alongside the normal switches to site the wifi switches and put a blanking plate over that.

[G and J]

So how can one wire one of these relays so the manual switch and the relay work side by side?

 

Say for example a simple, single switch/pendant light.

[Bramco]

Take a look at the specs for either the Shelly device above, or the Sonoff mini.  It's very simple, from memory, you take the power and switched live from the wall switch, put them on the wifi switch and take leads from the wifi switch to the wall switch live and switched live (and maybe a neutral).   Once you switch the circuit back on at the CU, you can search for the new device in the app.

 

Also, Sonoff do versions for Zigbee as well as wifi - I think zigbee has a better range and is less susceptible to a poor signal. I might be wrong there.  If you do go Zigbee, you'd need a Zigbee to wifi bridge to get the devices visible on wifi.

 

Buy one and have a play...  they're very cheap.

 

EDIT - if you can wait, go on a Chinese site, they are cheaper there than Amazon.  And there's black Friday deals around at the moment.

Edited November 27 by Bramco

[Pocster]

17 minutes ago, Bramco said:

Take a look at the specs for either the Shelly device above, or the Sonoff mini.  It's very simple, from memory, you take the power and switched live from the wall switch, put them on the wifi switch and take leads from the wifi switch to the wall switch live and switched live (and maybe a neutral).   Once you switch the circuit back on at the CU, you can search for the new device in the app.

 

Also, Sonoff do versions for Zigbee as well as wifi - I think zigbee has a better range and is less susceptible to a poor signal. I might be wrong there.  If you do go Zigbee, you'd need a Zigbee to wifi bridge to get the devices visible on wifi.

 

Buy one and have a play...  they're very cheap.

 

EDIT - if you can wait, go on a Chinese site, they are cheaper there than Amazon.  And there's black Friday deals around at the moment.

Just be careful with the direct from China ones . Can be hit or miss . But considerably cheaper .

Now though I buy from Amazon deliberately so I can return it with reason for return as “ is crap “ 

[Pocster]

2 hours ago, G and J said:

So how can one wire one of these relays so the manual switch and the relay work side by side?

 

Say for example a simple, single switch/pendant light.

Hey 

 

I’ve got a Shelly rgbw and mini 1 you can have if you like ? . Not exactly what you need but will allow you to PLAY 😊

[joth]

21 hours ago, Super_Paulie said:

i will move onto HA when i have finished building the place, but for now Google does what i need it to do (barely) like open the velux's and turn on lights that have no switches yet etc. All my Sonoff minis can be flashed to work locally, so when i have the time i'll move onwards and upwards.

What stage is your build at? I'd always advise putting in cabling at 1st fix to support proper (fully local, wired) control rather than finish the build then immediately retrofit wireless. Even if you can eliminate the Somebody Else's Computer aspect of consumer smart home gear, the reliability of wireless connections is generally terrible. Velux one of my least favourite vendors rn. But they all suck over the long run.

 

[G and J]

42 minutes ago, Pocster said:

Hey 

 

I’ve got a Shelly rgbw and mini 1 you can have if you like ? . Not exactly what you need but will allow you to PLAY 😊

That’s such a kind offer, thank you.  I’ll do some more reading in my spare time (yep, when laying awake) and pick one system to play with and start prototyping. 

[G and J]

7 minutes ago, joth said:

What stage is your build at? I'd always advise putting in cabling at 1st fix to support proper (fully local, wired) control rather than finish the build then immediately retrofit wireless. Even if you can eliminate the Somebody Else's Computer aspect of consumer smart home gear, the reliability of wireless connections is generally terrible. Velux one of my least favourite vendors rn. But they all suck over the long run.

 

So cat something cable to every light switch backbox from a thumping great Ethernet switch you mean?

[Pocster]

4 minutes ago, G and J said:

So cat something cable to every light switch backbox from a thumping great Ethernet switch you mean?

Don’t think you can ‘cat’ a light switch .

But you want cat’s everywhere . I have over 80 in and ( of course ) always have the situation where I need another . There are solutions to that of course - such as another router etc . With lighting most switches are WiFi ( Shelly for example ) , zigbee , z wave , matter ( too new imho ) or custom .

I had mixed issues with z wave - mainly delays . I.e walk in bathroom light comes on in 1 second or light comes on in 10 seconds . 

Zigbee ( apart from the odd dead spot ) has even been awarded SWMBO WAF ! . Except when it fails 🙄

Edited November 27 by Pocster

[G and J]

1 hour ago, Pocster said:

SWMBO WAF

I am sooooo gonna regret asking this, but what does WAF stand for?

[Pocster]

Just now, G and J said:

I am sooooo gonna regret asking this, but what does WAF stand for?

Wife

 

Appreciation

 

Factor

 

[-rick-]

3 minutes ago, Pocster said:

Appreciation

Thought it was acceptance?

[joth]

1 hour ago, G and J said:

So cat something cable to every light switch backbox from a thumping great Ethernet switch you mean?

No. I'm not aware of any light switch using wired ethernet.

But yes CAT6a to each light switch is a possible option if doing something like knx, Loxone tree or retractive switches. Many variables so there's no one size fits all answer. (No hiding the fact it's considerably more work to plan than conventional wiring)

 

 

[Pocster]

14 minutes ago, -rick- said:

Thought it was acceptance?

Oh ! Don’t know now !!

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Pocster said:

Oh ! Don’t know now !!

 

https://www.acronymfinder.com/Slang/WAF.html

[Pocster]

3 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

 

https://www.acronymfinder.com/Slang/WAF.html

I think it’s stands for what A (expletive deleted) 

[G and J]

FUBAR I suspect lol. 
 

Back to cyber lighting, I think I can conclude that I can add this stuff later, especially if I wire loop-at-switch.  
 

Given the massive retrofit market there must be compared to new build that conclusion is entirely credible. 
 

No extra wiring is needed, and the stuff isn’t desperately expensive so the exclusion from VAT reclaim won’t matter, and may even be negated by reducing prices as the market matures.  
 

Plus I am capable of diversion and I’ll need to focus on the build. 

[CaptainDram]

On 27/11/2024 at 15:24, joth said:

No. I'm not aware of any light switch using wired ethernet.

But yes CAT6a to each light switch is a possible option if doing something like knx, Loxone tree or retractive switches. Many variables so there's no one size fits all answer. (No hiding the fact it's considerably more work to plan than conventional wiring)

 

 

On Control4, you can have a centralised lighting system. So all lighting is wired back to the plant room and then every ‘light switch’ or in this case programmable keypad is wired with data cable (i don’t think it’s Cat6 in this case) in a daisy chain back to the plant room. This means the keypads can be doing loads of other things as well as lighting.

 

also wise to have done wireless keypads around if you’re having a signed network as part of the C4 system.

 

ive worked in as art hone products for a long time. Even though C4 is expensive seems like a far reaching solution with great integration. I believe you can ask your dealer for certain ability to do done programming on your own.

[JohnMo]

31 minutes ago, CaptainDram said:

Control4, you can have a centralised lighting system. So all lighting is wired back to the plant room and then every ‘light switch’ or in this case programmable keypad is wired with data cable (i don’t think it’s Cat6 in this case) in a daisy chain back to the plant room. This means the keypads can be doing loads of other things as well as lighting.

Why would any sensible person bother. Seems a lot of cable to switch on your lights on. What do you do when the the equipment is obsolete, and breaks down in a few years time? At least a shelly can be pulled out of the system and revert to normal lights.

[joth]

Control4 light switches would normally be over knx which was one of the options I mentioned, so (a) it's a bus so not that much extra wiring, maybe even less, and (b) if control4 goes bust/obsolete you can swap stuff out for equivalent from one of the other X hundred other knx vendors. But yes this conversation is only relevant for anyone already set on using in wired digital controls. Shelly is fantastic for the odd fix to get out of a tight spot, but god forbid I'd personally never design a whole house dependant on it for every fitting. Especially when you add motion sensors and door contacts to the mix. 

Edited November 29 by joth

[JohnMo]

36 minutes ago, joth said:

but god forbid I'd personally never design a whole house dependant on it for every fitting

Nor me, I just flick the light switch, as required.

 

Seems to be plenty of used control4 stuff on eBay. Not sure if that's a good or bad sign.

[MikeSharp01]

16 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Control4, you can have a centralised lighting system. So all lighting is wired back to the plant room and then every ‘light switch’ or in this case programmable keypad is wired with data cable (i don’t think it’s Cat6 in this case) in a daisy chain back to the plant room. This means the keypads can be doing loads of other things as well as lighting.

We have effectively gone this way although the switches are all wired in the standard 1mm flat cable so they could be wired normaly if the central system fails they can be wired, with a single bridge connection (actually done as din rail switch blade terminals - https://www.kempstoncontrols.co.uk/011598600/Entrelec/sku/436) direct. At the outset the ground floor has central control and all the first floor lighting is traditionally wired back in the lighting panel so I can extend the control system to them if I ever want to.

[Thorfun]

9 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Nor me, I just flick the light switch, as required.

 

Seems to be plenty of used control4 stuff on eBay. Not sure if that's a good or bad sign.

There’s something magical about walking in to a room and the lights turning on to your chosen preset mood depending on time of day and current light levels etc. 

 

I love it and glad I went down the Loxone route. 

[G and J]

Can you have a normal rocker (i.e. on/off) switch with Loxone?

[Kelvin]

1 hour ago, Thorfun said:

There’s something magical about walking in to a room and the lights turning on to your chosen preset mood depending on time of day and current light levels etc. 

 

I love it and glad I went down the Loxone route. 

Me too but it is dear like any of the dedicated systems and arguably not worth it if it’s just lighting you are controlling. 
 

My favourite part of the lighting is this switch that controls the whole open plan area and its many lighting circuits. You can also tap through all the various moods as there are several of those. 

 

Edited November 30 by Kelvin