Going round the houses (literally!) on design…

[CaptainDram]

Evening all, 

 

we’re at concept stage and really firing around different design. A few points to note, we’re in a conservation area. Trying to build a house that accommodates a family of four and a granny pad for the in-laws. Trying to squeeze a lot in! 5 beds, kitchen-dining-snug, living room, sitting room for in-laws…. A lot!

 

aiming for 185m2 and the plot is a tight shape likely to have a house on the boundary with a courtyard/driveway to g into a small office outbuilding already in place. Here’s a really rough go at floor plans and a model I made in sketchup (ignore the roof, I’m still learning!)…

 

any thoughts?

Idea 3 gf.pdf Idea 3 FINAL 8.pdf idea 3 FF.pdf

[CaptainDram]

[mjc55]

Couple of thoughts

 

Turning circle for car?  Can't tell from the drawings what the location is like but would you actually be able to turn a car around on the drive?

 

A lot of angles on the room shapes, outside walls.  Added complexity therefore added cost.  The roof looks very complex because of the shape of the house.

Edited November 25 by mjc55

[ETC]

Crazy shape.

[Pocster]

Not being rude - but an architect should come up with something better for your needs .

Edited November 25 by Pocster

[CaptainDram]

Sorry guys, should have said roof is crazy just cause I can’t use sketchup. I’m definitely not an architect!

 

We have to work to the shape of the plot unfortunately. Architect can straighten the rooms out a little. Was more looking to see if anyone had any alternate idea for how we could work with the plot.

[Temp]

+1 on the roof. Roof complexity can add a lot to the cost.

[SBMS]

I think you would do better to regularise it into either a standard U shape or an L shape. Also consider going up into the attic space to fit additional bedrooms so that you don’t have to compromise your plot space. I reckon three stories in a simple L shape would yield more space and less cost. 

[Russell griffiths]

185m is not big enough for what you are trying to build, ok for the family house but not big enough for the outlaws as well. 
get planning for a nice regular 4 bed and sell it, buy a better plot. 

[CaptainDram]

Thanks for the feedback. We feel we might even be struggling with planning for two stories based on where we are. Next door is bungalow with loft conversion and due to the small nature of plot and close proximity of next door neighbour we will be towering over them.

 

It's a difficult one! I'm sure we will find a solution

[SBMS]

Just now, CaptainDram said:

Thanks for the feedback. We feel we might even be struggling with planning for two stories based on where we are. Next door is bungalow with loft conversion and due to the small nature of plot and close proximity of next door neighbour we will be towering over them.

 

It's a difficult one! I'm sure we will find a solution

Not three stories but rooms in the attic. Ours is a two storey house but with clever planning we had three floors with some really good usable space. What’s your footprint sqm with what you’ve designed?

[Pocster]

28 minutes ago, CaptainDram said:

Thanks for the feedback. We feel we might even be struggling with planning for two stories based on where we are. Next door is bungalow with loft conversion and due to the small nature of plot and close proximity of next door neighbour we will be towering over them.

 

It's a difficult one! I'm sure we will find a solution

Go underground my friend ….

[SBMS]

@CaptainDram - it depends what you're after, but I always think maximising space in a plot like yours would be where I would go.  A really simple layout but if you go for a regular rectangle box with a fairly normal ridge height, you could use attic trusses which gives you 5.5m wide rooms in attic space (with eaves at 1.5m).

 

A simple 11.5 x 9.6m footprint would fit in your site and would give you a greater footprint than your design (110m2 versus your 96m2 ).

 

In total I think you could get 270m2+ of usable habit space with a standard 8.5m - 9m ridge height house (drawn onto your scaled plot)..

 

Ground Floor

First Floor

 

Second Floor

Edited November 25 by SBMS

[CaptainDram]

@SBMS really appreciate the input. Gives us another angle to discuss with the architect.

 

what impact on cost to build does the attic space have? Do you consider it like any other internal square meterage?

Edited November 25 by CaptainDram

[SBMS]

21 minutes ago, CaptainDram said:

@SBMS really appreciate the input. Gives us another angle to discuss with the architect.

 

what impact on cost to build does the attic space have? Do you consider it like any other internal square meterage?

I would treat the costs as less than 50% of your ground floor sqm costs. You’ll be putting a roof on anyway and with attic trusses they can come with a posi floor. Minimal changes there. You’ll need an extra staircase and then really it’s internal fit out costs. 

[CaptainDram]

Ok, here’s what the architect came up with…

 

any thoughts?

Front Elevation Alternatives 2024-12-11.pdf GF & Site Plan 2024-12-11.pdf FF Plan Options 2024.12.11.pdf Approx Roof Plan 2024-12-11.pdf Front Elevation Base 2024-12-11.pdf

[Russdl]

What’s the road situation? Highways may have a lot to say re driving in and out in a ‘forward’ gear. 
 

Your plot shape brings to mind that amazing triangular house featured on Grand Designs a few years ago that was built on a very tricky plot. 

[CaptainDram]

The entrance to the plot was the entrance to the house before the plot was divided so it’s been used as drive in for years. I’ll have a look to it that GD thanks

[Havkey100]

A few thoughts. Just thinking about what the case officer might say:

 

1. Very close to rear boundary. What's behind the house?

2. Turning for vehicle will be required if it is a new build. They assume people will not reverse onto their drive.

3. Front garden will not count as private amenity space. Looks tight. Here it would be 70sqm for a 4 bed. What will you have?

3. Planner may say it is contrived as it does look a bit shoehorned in. Are there similar builds in the area?

 

 

[ETC]

Very poor effort. Not an architect.

 

Let me know if you want me to take a look.

Edited December 13 by ETC

[Great_scot_selfbuild]

Hopefully you have all these questions covered off already, but from my limited experience I found that my architect focussed very much on the design without much / any regard for building regulations or tedious details associated with local plans and policies. It seems that some architects (thankfully not mine, but certainly some local to us) seem to specialist in getting through planning, regardless of whether the design can actually be built. With that in mind, here are some questions I'd start with:

 

1. Is this a bare plot or is it for a replacement dwelling? (especially relevant in a conservation area)

 

2. Have you got pre-application planning advice? We had this without even submitting a plan (we were expecting a 'no' regardless of what we put in), and although the answer was predictable, it proved valuable to cite that we had followed all the guidance for getting pre-app advice, and di help us frame some of our submission to address directly the main areas of concern (with something to reference against).

 

3. Alongside this, have you had transport/highways pre-app advice; we did this the second time around and they were far more engaging and helpful than the planning team - the input really helped our application in being successful on the second time around (I've searched a couple of councils and they seem to offer this as standard).

 

4. Does it meet the minimum space standards for room sizes?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6123c60e8fa8f53dd1f9b04d/160519_Nationally_Described_Space_Standard.pdf

 

5. Have you checked your council transport planning policy guidance? Some examples:

Surrey guidance - https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/roads-and-transport/parking/strategy-and-guidance/development-parking-guidance#section-5

Oxfordshire guidance - https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/sites/default/files/file/roads-and-transport-policies-and-plans/PARKINGS.PDF

 

Having read far far too many planning applications in the 2.5yrs it took us to get approval, a very common condition I've read refers to being able to leave and join the public highway in a forward gear (regardless of what the existing street scene looks like!). Although they're certainly not cheap, if this becomes show-stopper, search for car turntables - you may just have to re-prioritise your budget if you find yourself presented with this challenge.

https://www.ukturntables.com/diy-car-turntables/

 

6. Garden amenity space standards (each council has a space standard) - what is yours, is your architect thinking about this, and how are they going to present your design case forward?

 

7. Are you using a planning consultant at all? (mine cost £3,050 for first submission which was money well spent in our case)

 

8. What will be your solution for drainage and wastewater? (are you able to connect to mains drainage & waste? - if not, what is your architect's plan for factoring this in?)

 

Hopefully you've got all this issues boxed off and my comment isn't needed.

 

Best of luck.

[CaptainDram]

10 hours ago, Great_scot_selfbuild said:

Hopefully you have all these questions covered off already, but from my limited experience I found that my architect focussed very much on the design without much / any regard for building regulations or tedious details associated with local plans and policies. It seems that some architects (thankfully not mine, but certainly some local to us) seem to specialist in getting through planning, regardless of whether the design can actually be built. With that in mind, here are some questions I'd start with:

 

1. Is this a bare plot or is it for a replacement dwelling? (especially relevant in a conservation area)

 

2. Have you got pre-application planning advice? We had this without even submitting a plan (we were expecting a 'no' regardless of what we put in), and although the answer was predictable, it proved valuable to cite that we had followed all the guidance for getting pre-app advice, and di help us frame some of our submission to address directly the main areas of concern (with something to reference against).

 

3. Alongside this, have you had transport/highways pre-app advice; we did this the second time around and they were far more engaging and helpful than the planning team - the input really helped our application in being successful on the second time around (I've searched a couple of councils and they seem to offer this as standard).

 

4. Does it meet the minimum space standards for room sizes?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6123c60e8fa8f53dd1f9b04d/160519_Nationally_Described_Space_Standard.pdf

 

5. Have you checked your council transport planning policy guidance? Some examples:

Surrey guidance - https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/roads-and-transport/parking/strategy-and-guidance/development-parking-guidance#section-5

Oxfordshire guidance - https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/sites/default/files/file/roads-and-transport-policies-and-plans/PARKINGS.PDF

 

Having read far far too many planning applications in the 2.5yrs it took us to get approval, a very common condition I've read refers to being able to leave and join the public highway in a forward gear (regardless of what the existing street scene looks like!). Although they're certainly not cheap, if this becomes show-stopper, search for car turntables - you may just have to re-prioritise your budget if you find yourself presented with this challenge.

https://www.ukturntables.com/diy-car-turntables/

 

6. Garden amenity space standards (each council has a space standard) - what is yours, is your architect thinking about this, and how are they going to present your design case forward?

 

7. Are you using a planning consultant at all? (mine cost £3,050 for first submission which was money well spent in our case)

 

8. What will be your solution for drainage and wastewater? (are you able to connect to mains drainage & waste? - if not, what is your architect's plan for factoring this in?)

 

Hopefully you've got all this issues boxed off and my comment isn't needed.

 

Best of luck.

Thanks for this helpful comment. 
 

1. The plot has a garage built g that had detailed planning to convert to a two bed dwelling. The architect is my father in law and it was him who intended to build but circumstances have changed. It is a conservation area and we have a few TPO trees to deal with.

 

2. planning co sultans was on site yesterday looking at some designs and the plot (we’ve shown him the largest possible design we want and asked for advice) I haven’t got the detail from that yet.

 

3. The road immediately outside is private and not adopted I believe. As it’s been the access to the property for 40-50 years we don’t see an issue here.  Forward gear is a thought, I think we will be able to turn as we always have on the driveway but it needs looking at, thanks.

 

4. I think we want to go bigger than the plans, closer to 200m2 but we should be fine there.

 

6. Discussing this with planning consultant also

 

8. there’s already connected drainage on the plot, toilet in the outbuilding and storm drains connected to main drain system.

[Great_scot_selfbuild]

55 minutes ago, CaptainDram said:

Thanks for this helpful comment. 
 

1. The plot has a garage built g that had detailed planning to convert to a two bed dwelling. The architect is my father in law and it was him who intended to build but circumstances have changed. It is a conservation area and we have a few TPO trees to deal with.

 

2. planning co sultans was on site yesterday looking at some designs and the plot (we’ve shown him the largest possible design we want and asked for advice) I haven’t got the detail from that yet.

 

3. The road immediately outside is private and not adopted I believe. As it’s been the access to the property for 40-50 years we don’t see an issue here.  Forward gear is a thought, I think we will be able to turn as we always have on the driveway but it needs looking at, thanks.

 

4. I think we want to go bigger than the plans, closer to 200m2 but we should be fine there.

 

6. Discussing this with planning consultant also

 

8. there’s already connected drainage on the plot, toilet in the outbuilding and storm drains connected to main drain system.

@CaptainDram search for your local ‘definitive map’ this sets out the authoritative road status. I used this information in my access strategy. 

[MR10]

On 13/12/2024 at 20:58, ETC said:

 

Let me know if you want me to take a look.

@CaptainDram +1 to this.