The right compactor for Geocell floor???

[eros_poli]

Hi,

 

I'm about to install a Glapor Geocell floor, provided by Mike Wye. On their guidance it recommends a compactor of between 85-120kg in weight (among other specs). 

 

The only compactors I can find for hire around me are 50kg in weight.

 

Does anyone have any experience of compacting geocell with a lighter whacker plate? Ideally it’s electric as I don't want the house to stink of fumes for months..... 

 

Do I just need to use it for longer/slower to get the same compaction ratio? Or do I have to use a heavier unit?

 

Here's the lighter weight electric one https://brandonhirestation.com/electric-plate-compactor-hire

 

Thanks!

 

J

[Dave Jones]

a normal plate wacker will be fine unless you plan on parking 40 ton artics in the living room!

[eros_poli]

Nice one, thanks Dave.

[sgt_woulds]

Geocell is an arse to compact.  You will need the heaviest whacker you can get to achieve anything like the compaction rates that Mike Wye suggest when they work out how much product you need.

 

Expect to have a lot left over.

 

You won't find an electric whacker up to the job - at least I didn't - so unfortunately you will have to put up with petrol fume headaches and the one you'll get just from the noise...

 

Plan for more labour than you expect.  Geocell does not shovel easily because it binds together - moving it around before whacking is exhausting even for a very small area.

 

If it's just for a living room I'd be less concerned than for a garage; use an electric whacker - but reduce the amount of geocell purchased by at least a quarter.

 

 

[Nick Thomas]

I assume the advertised U value depends on the recommended compaction level? Any idea how much reduced compaction would affect it? A quarter less material = multiply by 1.25?

[SteamyTea]

6 hours ago, Nick Thomas said:

Any idea how much reduced compaction would affect it

Just work it out from first principles.  The solid material will have a k-value, and that will stay they same, just shorter in length.

The air, which is what actually does the majority of the work, will be reduced in mass/volume, and will also be shorter in length.

So as long as you know the original densities, you can calculate the volumes, and therefore the length at the correct compaction level.  Then recalculate for greater compaction.

[saveasteading]

31 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

The air, which is what actually does the majority of the work, will be reduced in mass/volume, and will also be shorter in length.

But isn't there more air? That is what the compaction is expelling from the product.

[SteamyTea]

13 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

But isn't there more air

No. It is probably just crushing the solid part, or at least making a more uniform matrix.

The solid material will still be there, just with less air mixed in with it.

 

This is why on a roll of mineral wool type insulation, it specifies the thickness.

Crushing in more material reduces the k-value.

You can think of it as a stud, in a stud in a wall, reduce the depth of them and you not only shorten there thermal path, but you also reduce the air thickness, reducing the performance even more.

[Adrian Walker]

You need a heavy wacker plate even if you reduce the thickness. An electric one won’t really cut it. Max 150mm per layer. 

[Gus Potter]

23 hours ago, eros_poli said:

Hi,

 

I'm about to install a Glapor Geocell floor, provided by Mike Wye. On their guidance it recommends a compactor of between 85-120kg in weight (among other specs). 

 

The only compactors I can find for hire around me are 50kg in weight.

 

Does anyone have any experience of compacting geocell with a lighter whacker plate? Ideally it’s electric as I don't want the house to stink of fumes for months..... 

 

Do I just need to use it for longer/slower to get the same compaction ratio? Or do I have to use a heavier unit?

 

Here's the lighter weight electric one https://brandonhirestation.com/electric-plate-compactor-hire

 

Thanks!

 

J

Well done you for going for Geocell. I've worked with / designed for another member on BH using this as an option to EPS / XPS but in a slightly diferent context. All reports back so far are good!

 

Can you post some detailed drawings and your target U values and edge details of what you propose. 

 

To be clear.. that means all the details. I'm interested but I'm not here to guess about what you want to do.. it's part of my day job as an SE and hobby so if you want a hand then please provide more quality information. 

 

Just as an aside.. The WYE system here:

 

https://www.mikewye.co.uk/product/glasscrete-floor/

 

Is for a breathable floor. Now if you are on clay and you compact the shit out of it then you no longer have a breathable floor unless you ventilate at the sides big time!

 

Love what you are doing, excuse the brevity!

 

 

 

 

[saveasteading]

4 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

probably just crushing the solid part

I wonder. 

When we buy type 1, we are wanting the finished product to be as much like solid stone as possible. So we whack it but, importantly, also vibrate it so that the little bits fill the gaps between the big bits. No air is left.

G9eocell seems to be single size with lots of gaps. Whacking it will break sandy shards off it (I assume) and you get the assessed  performance. Doing it less, there will be more air. But presumably trapped within the finished product. 

I'd think working with 50 or 75mm layers will compact decently with a lesser compactor. Nobody will have tested it though.

[Gus Potter]

4 hours ago, saveasteading said:

I wonder. 

When we buy type 1, we are wanting the finished product to be as much like solid stone as possible. So we whack it but, importantly, also vibrate it so that the little bits fill the gaps between the big bits. No air is left.

G9eocell seems to be single size with lots of gaps. Whacking it will break sandy shards off it (I assume) and you get the assessed  performance. Doing it less, there will be more air. But presumably trapped within the finished product. 

I'd think working with 50 or 75mm layers will compact decently with a lesser compactor. Nobody will have tested it though.

Yes type one is aimed at good compaction and achieving density. Add a little cement content and you have a lean mix that forms a lot of the sub base of our motorways.

 

I think Geocell is much more like a single size aggregate.. like railway ballast. Now as an SE I should be using some technical terms.. but my best answer is that for Geocell which is pretty much a single size material it just needs "shoogled" into place. Thrashing it to death with say a 10 tonne vibrating roller will just damage it. I've  specified this stuff and the results (feed back) so far are good for the loads I want it to carry.

 

Goecell is not new in terms of material composition. It's stable, not frost succeptiable for example. It is bulky and a bit of a shit to shovel apparently. The top of it is a bit rough so maybe needs a bit of blinding. I'll leave the last bit out as this is my IP property.

 

Now @Alan Ambrose for example. The NHBC put a limit on hardcore fill for rafts foundations at 600mm.. and this would apply to say EPS and XPS material on hard core.

 

I wonder if Goecell have ideas o how thick thierstuff can be? Their stuff is not heave prone, not frost prone and has insultating properties. This has got me thinking.. can we do rafts with lots of Geocell and little if no EPS or EPS where we need to go deep to avoid clay and tree root  heave for example.

 

Now Geocel is light weigth so on bad ground we dig out some crap stuff and replace with  a lighter structural fill.. now we further reduce the soil loadings.

 

I'm just chewing the fat here folks but BH is at the cutting edge of things.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mjc55]

Sounds interesting, what is the cost impact of replacing standard insulation with Geocell?

 

We are planning to build a small "pod" on site to live in whilst building main house (will become office/store) and want to use the pod as a bit of a test bed for build methodology on main house (approx 6.5 x 4).  

[saveasteading]

4 hours ago, mjc55 said:

, what is the cost impact

I don't know the product but have read the advertisement. At £120 per big bag of 1m3 that will be £18/m2 plus vat for 150mm thickness. Pir is much the same I think. If you can replace sub base thickness too then it looks promising.

BUT I expect you need a board on top of it for level control.

So 100mm plus 50mm board????

I'm interested, you can see.

[mjc55]

3 hours ago, saveasteading said:

I don't know the product but have read the advertisement. At £120 per big bag of 1m3 that will be £18/m2 plus vat for 150mm thickness. Pir is much the same I think. If you can replace sub base thickness too then it looks promising.

BUT I expect you need a board on top of it for level control.

So 100mm plus 50mm board????

I'm interested, you can see.

Will do some more cost research - probably not for a week or two - and relate my findings here.

 

Would assume that cost comes down a lot if bought in bulk.

Edited November 12 by mjc55

[Roger440]

On 26/09/2024 at 03:25, Gus Potter said:

Yes type one is aimed at good compaction and achieving density. Add a little cement content and you have a lean mix that forms a lot of the sub base of our motorways.

 

I think Geocell is much more like a single size aggregate.. like railway ballast. Now as an SE I should be using some technical terms.. but my best answer is that for Geocell which is pretty much a single size material it just needs "shoogled" into place. Thrashing it to death with say a 10 tonne vibrating roller will just damage it. I've  specified this stuff and the results (feed back) so far are good for the loads I want it to carry.

 

Goecell is not new in terms of material composition. It's stable, not frost succeptiable for example. It is bulky and a bit of a shit to shovel apparently. The top of it is a bit rough so maybe needs a bit of blinding. I'll leave the last bit out as this is my IP property.

 

Now @Alan Ambrose for example. The NHBC put a limit on hardcore fill for rafts foundations at 600mm.. and this would apply to say EPS and XPS material on hard core.

 

I wonder if Goecell have ideas o how thick thierstuff can be? Their stuff is not heave prone, not frost prone and has insultating properties. This has got me thinking.. can we do rafts with lots of Geocell and little if no EPS or EPS where we need to go deep to avoid clay and tree root  heave for example.

 

Now Geocel is light weigth so on bad ground we dig out some crap stuff and replace with  a lighter structural fill.. now we further reduce the soil loadings.

 

I'm just chewing the fat here folks but BH is at the cutting edge of things.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ive used it, and your description of "shoggled" is about right. Its nothing like whacking down type 1. Significant voids or gaps remain afterwards.

 

A geotextile membrane was then laid before concrete/lime crete. If you didnt, the voids are such that the concrete would fall down into the voids, negating its insulating properties.

 

The main reason i used it aside from being "breathable" (old house) if i can use that term is that it reduced excavation as it is both the sub base and insulating layer combined.

 

Im not one for taking pics, heres a shot with geocell, membrane and heating pipes down

[Russdl]

20 hours ago, mjc55 said:

Sounds interesting, what is the cost impact of replacing standard insulation with Geocell?

I don’t really know the answer but the Geocell replaces the Type 1 and the standard insulation. Clearly it’s more expensive than Type 1 but how it measures up against standard insulation I don’t know. 
 

We used it for a detached garage and it worked really well. If I were to build another house (ain’t/wont happen) I would definitely consider it for the insulted slab over the PIR bucket. 

[Gus Potter]

On 13/11/2024 at 10:24, Russdl said:

I don’t really know the answer but the Geocell replaces the Type 1 and the standard insulation. Clearly it’s more expensive than Type 1 but how it measures up against standard insulation I don’t know. 
 

We used it for a detached garage and it worked really well. If I were to build another house (ain’t/wont happen) I would definitely consider it for the insulted slab over the PIR bucket.

I did the structural and foundation design for @Russdl, just call him Russ. It was a great journey for me as a designer. At the outset Russ kind of knew that he wanted to use Geocell and he had good valid reasons for this, had researched widely and already has one self build at least under his belt. Key factors; the ground conditions, the shape of the structure (odd shape) drainage, boundary proximity, site access, muck away cost, the odd planning constraint and cost awareness.

 

In summary this lead to a flat raft type foundation with masonry walls, EWI and cold formed steel roof joists supporting a warm flat roof. Russ build most of this himself and put in a lot of hard work sourcing and fine tuning the installation, his door insulated solution is remarkably good, I'm going to pinch some of this final (on site understanding) threshold detail off him!

 

Ok the Goecell. Russ and I chewed the fat for a while. Me with my SE hat on, him with his practical hat and attention to detail. At the end of the day we ended up with a flat slab on the Geocell.. it is really simple. No edge thickening. His slab is pretty big so I added extra anticrack reinforcement near the doors and funny corners. The objective was to do the slab in one pour and avoid day / control joints as they would then translate up into the super structure.. and cause problems with the masonry design.

 

Folks there is no free lunch and that is why all parts of the design need to be coordinated. What you do at foundation level can have a cost implication later on.

 

At my end one trick was to use standard reinforcing mesh site bent at the ends to give the reinforcement anchorage. I selected the slab thickness to make it a structural slab (a raft) and no more. For the tecky.. my starting point was to have 0.13% of rebar which turns it into a structural slab (cf a ground bearing slab).. if you make the slab thicker is needs more rebar to comply with the minimum % for it to qualify as a structural (raft) slab.. I aimed for the thinnest slab.. and from memory this was driven by how flat you can get the Goecell and having enough of a bend on the reinforcing mesh to anchor it.

 

Now the Goecell. It has a good bearing capacity cf a crappy CLAY soil. We know how the slab will impart the loads. We also know we just needed to provide enough compaction to consolidate the material.. no compacting it to death as this is counter productive.

 

In summary, can be a bit hard to get your head around but you kind of need to lay Geocell in layers and give it a "shoogle" and not actually whack it to death.

 

Russ is posting some of my drawings which I'm pleased about.   I hope this helps give folk on BH some ideas / inspiration. Just remember that Russ' job is bespoke so just use them as a bit of food for thought.

 

For old / historic buildings it is a pretty breathable matrix.. Historic England I think have a bit on this, lime floors floors and so on.

 

In summary this sort of stuff floats my boat in terms of how as an SE /designer you make the best out of this type of product in a cost effective manner .. if the opportunity presents!