How to handle a dispute with a Contractor?

[Mulberry View]

We welcomed our first contractor onto site a few weeks ago to install the VM Zinc roof. Their work is now mostly complete, but they have left the detailing around the 'Vario by Velux' windows in a condition whereby the £11k worth of roof windows cannot be satisfactorily installed in a way that preserves the Velux warranty. However, if we alter the detailing we risk voiding the 50-year warranty on the Zinc roof.

 

The Zinc installer insists that their work is complete, even though the hinges that now cannot be refitted were removed during their work, and now they want the final payment.

 

We are now almost a month over our scaffolding term because their timeline over-ran by 2.5 weeks and we cannot agree on how to resolve this dispute.

 

It's heart-breaking as this is the first proper contractor we've had and the cost is eye-watering.

[Alan Ambrose]

Oh dear, that's disappointing. Suggest first sitting down with them to see whether the problem can be resolved. Start off by saying you would prefer not to have a time consuming and expensive conflict.

 

Is it obvious what practical change needs to happen? - cutting slots out for the hinges, for instance? If so, you can discuss how to get that done without breaking the paperwork.

 

The warranties are probaby worthless except to make a mortgage company or later buyer happy, so I would focus on the above - how can the required physical changes be made with them still providing their standard warranty?

 

You can also very subtly hint on the bad reviews you're likely to post ('I would like to be able to post some good reviews') - that means a lot to all businesses these days.

 

p.s. I would definitely hold the final payment until you have a solution at hand and has been implemented. Presumably this could be as simple as a some careful multitool work and (a) agreed in advance and then (b) signed off ... by whoever is installing the veluxes.

Edited September 20 by Alan Ambrose

[Mulberry View]

1 hour ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Oh dear, that's disappointing. Suggest first sitting down with them to see whether the problem can be resolved. Start off by saying you would prefer not to have a time consuming and expensive conflict.

 

Is it obvious what practical change needs to happen? - cutting slots out for the hinges, for instance? If so, you can discuss how to get that done without breaking the paperwork.

 

The warranties are probaby worthless except to make a mortgage company or later buyer happy, so I would focus on the above - how can the required physical changes be made with them still providing their standard warranty?

 

You can also very subtly hint on the bad reviews you're likely to post ('I would like to be able to post some good reviews') - that means a lot to all businesses these days.

 

p.s. I would definitely hold the final payment until you have a solution at hand and has been implemented. Presumably this could be as simple as a some careful multitool work and (a) agreed in advance and then (b) signed off ... by whoever is installing the veluxes.

 

Thanks for your reply Alan.

 

I toiled for a week over possible solutions, even trying to make pieces myself out of scrap Zinc they left, before going to the Zinc installer as I am someone who is minded to solve a problem rather than cause agro, but the more I looked at it, the more I can see a bodge-up ensuing. I wish there were an easy fix, I would do that rather than go through what I feel I'm about to have no choice but to endure.

 

Sadly the contractor is not a reasonable man at all, he has lacked empathy and understanding throughout the process that I have had to be fully engaged in, but that isn't fuelling this complaint at all. The poor workmanship I raised in the dispute is isolated and it is only that I need a solution to as I am desperate to get these windows in.

 

His view that his detail is water-tight and meets the VM Zinc guidelines is his defence and in a way he isn't wrong, but in refitting the hinges, the water-tightness will be lost and without a feasible and lasting way to regain. In my view, you cannot take parts off to ease an installation without a view of how those parts will be refitted and, as it stands, he might as well have removed my upstands and zinc'd over the entire openings as, although obviously not a viable answer, at least I'd have been water-tight!

[Jilly]

Would a good carpenter be able to create a solution?

[Alan Ambrose]

OK then there are two problems:

 

(1) the 'engineering problem' of how do you make the roof & veluxes work, and

(2) how to get that solution implemented in a sensible way without impacting the warranties.

 

Those are (kind of) parallel problems in that can be solved independently.

 

Question is: whose responsibility was/is it to solve the engineering problem and does any of that responsibility fall on him? On you? Someone else? Was there any written agreement? Has no one seen this coming up in advance i.e. there were not some SE drawings to build to which included this detail?

 

In terms of getting him to be more tractable, maybe a warning shot letter from a solicitor suggesting that it was 'obvious' that the roof and veluxes needed to work together (or include terms from the agreement) and/or suggest 'poor workmanship' if you feel you can justify it. Suggest it would be better for everyone if you worked together to solve the engineering problem. Ask him why it is that he has never encountered this situation with roof and veluxes before? Is he inexperienced? Tell him he doesn't get his final payment until the problem is solved and/or if he doesn't help to solve the problem you will appoint an expert to solve it at his expense. Tread as softly as you can but make make it obvious you carry a big stick.

 

Maybe a third party to help solve the engineering problem - most of this isn't rocket surgery after all? Post up some images / drawings here?

[Nick Laslett]

@Mulberry View, you have my sympathies. I have also been very cautious with the use of contractors. Unfortunately unless you watch them like a hawk and actually know how to do the job yourself, it is always fraught. My wife and I joke that this is our perfectly, imperfect house. I only recently realised that the contractor that installed our ground floor UFH, only fitted 75% of the designed piping. This throws off all my heat loss calcs and means the ASHP will have to run at a higher temp. Unfortunately the damage was done a long time ago and there is nothing that can rectify it. I’m sure we will survive. Good luck getting a decent resolution. 

Edited September 20 by Nick Laslett

[Andehh]

Yep, know the feeling... I was meticulous over the thermal envelope, went away for a week leaving clear instructions for when they installed 8m of slidding doors...they ignored them... Failed to call me and I returned to a massive cold bridge along the entire length, made worse by flush tiles that really conduct the heat.

 

And don't even mention the absolute (expletive deleted)ing asshole  lieing dishonest electrician we had to put up with. Lost several grand to his dishonesty.

 

As long as you get it right 85% of the time, you're doing well!

 

OP, can you post up some pics of what you are referring to?

Edited September 21 by Andehh

[Mulberry View]

This is the issue...

 

This is how I handed the Velux upstand over to them. Note the 3 hinges under the top rim, these are factory installed by Velux, they don't recommend removing them. The Zinc contractor wanted to run their back gutter detail up the upstand to the top and create a drip detail, all good so far. I believed I would be reinstalling the hinges over the top of a 0.8mm flat layer of Zinc, after cutter away the drip detail where the hinge would go...

 

 

This is what they left me with. I have folded the drip up and started to cut it, but realised that there are multiple layers of Zinc, as many as 5 in places and the left-hand hinge falls directly on top of a soldered joint. Keep in mind that the hinges were removed by me (with the Zinc guy watching) and on the second window they removed them.

 

 

 

Velux won't allow the hinges to be placed over more than one flat layer of Zinc, but if you cut the material out completely, you're left with a break in the upstand only about 50mm above the surface of the roof, which voids the VM Zinc warranty. The hinges pivot at the bottom, so this rules out a layer of material overlapping the hinges after installation.

 

The only solution I have in mind at the moment is to cut all the Zinc out in the vicinity of the hinges and place a single flat piece of Zinc over the whole area, bonded down and screwed through, thus water-tighting the area and leaving only one layer beneath the hinges, but I need that agreed by VM Zinc if that's deemed to be a solution. I'm told that the Zinc roof needs to be able to expand and contract, so screwing it to the upstand seems counter-intuitive.

 

 

[Mr Punter]

Would it work if you cut the zinc down a bit and dressed another material to act as a flashing, like a single ply membrane, over the top of the upstand and down over the zinc?

[Mulberry View]

On 21/09/2024 at 16:39, Mr Punter said:

Would it work if you cut the zinc down a bit and dressed another material to act as a flashing, like a single ply membrane, over the top of the upstand and down over the zinc?

 

What I'm left with is voiding the Vario by Velux warranty if I install the rooflights over this finish, or voiding the VM Zinc warranty if I alter the roof. I'm literally over a barrel and now the Zinc installer is telling me that if I don't pay the completion balance he's going to start proceedings to recover the money, but surely the job isn't complete yet?!

[Mr Punter]

What drawings were you working to?  Did Velux supply a detail for the zinc roof covering?

[Mulberry View]

10 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

What drawings were you working to?  Did Velux supply a detail for the zinc roof covering?

 

No, Velux didn't provide a specific detail, they seem to suggest that metal roofs are specialist and require bespoke details. My argument with the contractor is that they didn't query it and if they had, I could have pushed either Velux or an Architect for a better detail. I just cannot fathom how the contractor thought that a detail that doesn't allow the hinges that they removed to be refitted is a finished detail.

 

This is a terrible experience with our first major contractor on site.

[Andehh]

So sorry OP,you have my sympathies! Every building has these moments, and If you've made it this far..... You've done well!

 

I wonder if they could simply trim the entire top 5 inches off all the way round the roof light, then wrap a single layer of zone round each one over the top of the rest below. Almost like a sweat band going all the way round? Hinge then a req through it per single zinc layer?

[Mulberry View]

37 minutes ago, Andehh said:

So sorry OP,you have my sympathies! Every building has these moments, and If you've made it this far..... You've done well!

 

I wonder if they could simply trim the entire top 5 inches off all the way round the roof light, then wrap a single layer of zone round each one over the top of the rest below. Almost like a sweat band going all the way round? Hinge then a req through it per single zinc layer?

 

A detail rework is currently on the table, awaiting approval by VM Zinc and Vario by Velux (and us).

 

Do I have any grounds for compensation from the contractor for the time wasted, money lost on scaffolding etc? He has even not ruled out charging us to rectify the detail as he still thinks this is my fault. I am baffled.

[Andehh]

I doubt it, get the work done and meet in the middle.... And both walk away. Building house is hard enough, without added emotions seeking compensation for this complicated shitty occurrences. If he does try to charge for it, use the cost of scaffolding etc to cancel it out.

[Dave Jones]

back to the start. Was the zinc contractor aware of the velux detail hinges when they originally quoted and agreed to the job ?

 

Even if they werent it seems completely unreasonable not to offer a day on site paid with whoever is fitting the velux to get it sorted.

 

You have the ace card as youve not paid him. I'd have one more try to get him onsite if refuses contact his warranty provider and ask for a recomendation of another firm to do the same. Let him know you will be doing this and deducting their costs from his bill.

 

As as side you dont look to have wide enough upstands to get 100mm of insulation into, although the pics could be deceiving. 

[Mulberry View]

29 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

back to the start. Was the zinc contractor aware of the velux detail hinges when they originally quoted and agreed to the job ?

 

Even if they werent it seems completely unreasonable not to offer a day on site paid with whoever is fitting the velux to get it sorted.

 

You have the ace card as youve not paid him. I'd have one more try to get him onsite if refuses contact his warranty provider and ask for a recomendation of another firm to do the same. Let him know you will be doing this and deducting their costs from his bill.

 

As as side you dont look to have wide enough upstands to get 100mm of insulation into, although the pics could be deceiving. 

 

The roof plan shows opening windows, Vario by Velux windows have always been detailed, although the specificity of the hinges wasn't. I feel that, as the specialist, he ought to have told me if the detail wasn't sufficient, or if he decided to proceed with a detail of his design (which is what he did) that he take responsibility for it.

 

Interestingly, our roof has 200mm of Celotex on it. The upstands are 300mm, but sat on top of a spacer frame made from 47x97 timbers, so the remaining upstand is almost 150mm from the surface of the Zinc. You're right, pics can be deceiving!

[Dave Jones]

Just now, Mulberry View said:

 

The roof plan shows opening windows, Vario by Velux windows have always been detailed, although the specificity of the hinges wasn't. I feel that, as the specialist, he ought to have told me if the detail wasn't sufficient, or if he decided to proceed with a detail of his design (which is what he did) that he take responsibility for it.

 

Interestingly, our roof has 200mm of Celotex on it. The upstands are 300mm, but sat on top of a spacer frame made from 47x97 timbers, so the remaining upstand is almost 150mm from the surface of the Zinc. You're right, pics can be deceiving!

 

its width of upstand not height. can you get 100mm celotex +plasterboard on the upstands ?

[Mulberry View]

3 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

 

its width of upstand not height. can you get 100mm celotex +plasterboard on the upstands ?

 

Ah, no, the upstands are premade Velux items, with insulation in them.